For you Christians

[Onebadcad]

SERMON ON THE MOUNT
MATTHEW 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


2 Peter 2:1-3
False Teachers and Their Destruction
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

[Onebadcad]

JESUS never had a home address.

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style...en-and-kenneth

[LATB]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

It's a fair point. But the time gap was far less between those people compared to Jesus. Washington died 224 years ago and we're able to verify his existence through DNA. Columbus would be a bit harder to prove as he was a few hundred years before Washington. Jesus is much tougher to solve. His existence was nearly 2000 years ago and pretty much all remaining evidence of his life are only in words. Maybe if his body had been discovered/recovered...we could call his existence (or time on Earth) factual.

I did not ask you if Jesus is the son of God. I asked if you believe that he was a real person.
Do we have DNA evidence for thousands of historical figures?

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

You said earlier that truth could not be hidden by the passage of time.

Not really. What I said was, "I also agree that time doesn't really factor in the way everyone wants it to."

I don't know how you got the above statement from my comment as it has a completely different context than your inference.

Unless you were referencing a different statement I made? Happy to elaborate.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

I agree, but many will say a body not being found could be due to GOD allowed him not to taste death.

Moses is mentioned more than once in JESUS's teachings, and this is an account of his presence.
His presence, to some, bolsters the belief he was given special dispensation.

MATTHEW 17
Moses and Elijah Appear with Jesus

After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John (the brother of James) and led them up a high mountain where they could be alone.

2 Jesus’ appearance changed in front of them. His face became as bright as the sun and his clothes as white as light. 3 Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared to them and were talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it’s good that we’re here. If you want, I’ll put up three tents here—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

5 He was still speaking when a bright cloud overshadowed them. Then a voice came out of the cloud and said, “This is my Son, whom I love and with whom I am pleased. Listen to him!”

It literally says "Moses... died in the land of Moab."

This is exactly the warping I was talking about earlier. Mankind routinely tries to twist the scriptures or reasons his way in to making the Bible say what he thinks it should say or wants it to. Thus I give you denominations that believe homosexual marriage is biblical....the Bible clearly says it isn't. Calls it an "abomination" I believe.

The Bible teaches that we will have heavenly bodies that are sin/disease free. That would explain the appearance on the mount of transfiguration.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by LATB

I did not ask you if Jesus is the son of God. I asked if you believe that he was a real person.
Do we have DNA evidence for thousands of historical figures?

At the moment, no more than any of the other demigods throughout mythology.

Why stop at Jesus? What about Chiron? Perseus? Hercules? The Dioscuri? Shiva? The 29 Buddhas?

Do you believe there is merit or substance to ANY OTHER religion or mythology?

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

At the moment, no more than any of the other demigods throughout mythology.

Why stop at Jesus? What about Chiron? Perseus? Hercules? The Dioscuri? Shiva? The 29 Buddhas?

Do you believe there is merit or substance to ANY OTHER religion or mythology?

This is where true research comes in. There are a myriad of secular writings about Jesus Christ. I am not aware of a historical writing of someone seeing Perseus or Hercules.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

Not really. What I said was, "I also agree that time doesn't really factor in the way everyone wants it to."

I don't know how you got the above statement from my comment as it has a completely different context than your inference.

Unless you were referencing a different statement I made? Happy to elaborate.

I didn't go back for a verbatim quote...my bad. I was inferring from memory.

To your points though, the facts are when you look at documentation in a court of law, time doesn't play a factor like quality does.

This is where you are contradicting yourself if I understand your point.

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

At the moment, no more than any of the other demigods throughout mythology.

Why stop at Jesus? What about Chiron? Perseus? Hercules? The Dioscuri? Shiva? The 29 Buddhas?

Do you believe there is merit or substance to ANY OTHER religion or mythology?

So if you look at quality documentation of George Washington, it leaves no doubt that he existed. Same with Jesus Christ, the quality of the documentation is irrefutable. Why would you feel any different about Jesus?

The passage of time doesn't change truth nor can it create something that isn't real.


As to the question of mythology...Yes I believe that some of it was very loosely based on true events. Do you know what the nephilim were?

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

It literally says "Moses... died in the land of Moab."

This is exactly the warping I was talking about earlier. Mankind routinely tries to twist the scriptures or reasons his way in to making the Bible say what he thinks it should say or wants it to. Thus I give you denominations that believe homosexual marriage is biblical....the Bible clearly says it isn't. Calls it an "abomination" I believe.

The Bible teaches that we will have heavenly bodies that are sin/disease free. That would explain the appearance on the mount of transfiguration.

Again, I agree.

There is a realm where those who leave this Earth go, presumbly as a soul, as the flesh is left here.
It does not state this is hell, maybe a transitory place, as hell may not be available until earth's end.
'Maybe' Moses was given special dispensation to bypass this upon death.
Moses clearly at The Mount of Transfiguration with Elijah, Moses appears in a non-human body, celestial??

TRANSITORY PLACE??
1 PETER 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

So if you look at quality documentation of George Washington, it leaves no doubt that he existed. Same with Jesus Christ, the quality of the documentation is irrefutable. Why would you feel any different about Jesus?

Not sure how many wrote about the life of Jesus Christ, one would think much more than the Four Gospels.
A thought, Jesus was not popular among the masses, both the Romans and Jews feared his popularity, and probably did all they could to destroy any writings.

John 21:25
Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...2093%20to%2094.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

The Bible is 100% clear on that matter and absolutely refutes that assertion.

I will disagree.

Many lived before the time of Christ and thus did not know him.
After his time on Earth many did not have the opportunity to know of him and his teachings.
Many, after his time on Earth, lived in countries where the teaching of Christ were forbidden.
Many, after his time on Earth, lived short lifetimes, died at an age in which they learned very little.
Many, after his time on Earth, were conceived but never saw the light of day.
Many, after his time on Earth, were mislead by other religions, it is all they knew.

We can agree to disagree on this.
My belief is that OUR HEAVENLY FATHER is the GOD of Grace and Mercy, and those who were honest and helpful and innocent will be given a place in the next life.
All here on Earth are GOD's creation.
It is HIS desire to be with all of them for all eternity.
It is our decision to do good while on this Earth.
Non-exposure to Christ's teachings due to a non-controlled circumstance(s) can be overlooked, as not an assertive action.

For 4,000 years mankind knew nothing of Christ, do they all perish in the lake of fire??

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

This is where true research comes in. There are a myriad of secular writings about Jesus Christ. I am not aware of a historical writing of someone seeing Perseus or Hercules.

It gets tougher the further back you go. Human life is finite. It all boils down to how much "faith" do you put into the person telling the story being accurate or truthful? As flawed and fallible as man has been through our timeline (and still are) can you see why I am hesitant to take something this profound at what amounts to face value?

Here's 82 books to start with regarding Greek mythology if you're interested.

Jesus was ~2,024-2,054ish years ago. Greek mythology puts the time of Zeus (and the gods) at roughly 2,000ish years before Jesus' time. (Huge timeline here). But people back then obviously believed they were real enough to write about. But proving any of their existence through DNA is far more difficult because of the additional time that has passed. Mother nature can be cruel, especially to archaeologists.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

I will disagree.

Many lived before the time of Christ and thus did not know him.
After his time on Earth many did not have the opportunity to know of him and his teachings.
Many, after his time on Earth, lived in countries where the teaching of Christ were forbidden.
Many, after his time on Earth, lived short lifetimes, died at an age in which they learned very little.
Many, after his time on Earth, were conceived but never saw the light of day.
Many, after his time on Earth, were mislead by other religions, it is all they knew.

We can agree to disagree on this.
My belief is that OUR HEAVENLY FATHER is the GOD of Grace and Mercy, and those who were honest and helpful and innocent will be given a place in the next life.
All here on Earth are GOD's creation.
It is HIS desire to be with all of them for all eternity.
It is our decision to do good while on this Earth.
Non-exposure to Christ's teachings due to a non-controlled circumstance(s) can be overlooked, as not an assertive action.

For 4,000 years mankind knew nothing of Christ, do they all perish in the lake of fire??

I quoted the verse that doesn't leave any room for interpretation. Is the Bible wrong?

OT saints looked forward to the Messiah and had saving faith. Some believe that Christ witnessed to them in Abraham's Bosom or Hades while he was in the grave.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say an aboriginal person, for example, goes to heaven just bc they never heard the name of Jesus. Go read Acts 8:26-40 and see what happens when a man truly wants to know more about God.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

Jesus was ~2,024-1,944ish years ago. Greek mythology puts the time of Zeus (and the gods) at roughly 2,000ish years before Jesus' time. (Huge timeline here). But people back then obviously believed they were real enough to write about.

The Bible teaches that fallen angels came to earth and had babies with women here. The offspring called Nephilim....they were quasi-superhumans...called in the Bible, "the mighty men of old, men of renown." Could they have been the basis for mythological figures like Hercules? Id say its possible.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

I didn't go back for a verbatim quote...my bad. I was inferring from memory.

To your points though, the facts are when you look at documentation in a court of law, time doesn't play a factor like quality does.

This is where you are contradicting yourself if I understand your point.

So if you look at quality documentation of George Washington, it leaves no doubt that he existed. Same with Jesus Christ, the quality of the documentation is irrefutable. Why would you feel any different about Jesus?

The passage of time doesn't change truth nor can it create something that isn't real.

As to the question of mythology...Yes I believe that some of it was very loosely based on true events. Do you know what the nephilim were?

Yep, very familiar with Nephilim. What's your take on them? Demigods? Giants with special abilities? Fallen Angels?

I feel different about Jesus because I question the "quality of the documentation." I don't trust that something written over the span of 1500 years by hundreds of different people throughout time to be factually accurate. Every man has an agenda. I question the factuality of the bible the very same way I question the factuality of the mythology books I referenced above. The translation is what gets me. You mentioned Washington's works. Hard to misinterpret those as they're written in English. Granted it's the queens English, but it's still English, and it's only a couple of hundred years ago.

The original Bible was believed to have been written in cuneiform. How can anyone (now or then) verify that those first translations were accurate in any way? It's impossible...hence the majority of my skepticism.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

The Bible teaches that fallen angels came to earth and had babies with women here. The offspring called Nephilim....they were quasi-superhumans...called in the Bible, "the mighty men of old, men of renown." Could they have been the basis for mythological figures like Hercules? Id say its possible.

Agreed, it's plausible. When you compare the two, they share similar characteristics in their descriptions of the Greek versions. Subtle differences, but similarities too.

I still struggle with why would they leave? If men (mankind) truly worshipped them, that gives them all the power they could ever want/need. Why would any demigod ever leave? Why would they not continue to remain among us to be worshipped? Do they think we're so doomed that they can't help or even save us? Certainly with god-like powers (even half of a "Gods" power) is more than enough to save humanity. Is mankind just a toy that God (or gods) is/are tired of playing with? If so, are they still worthy of being worshipped?

[LATB]

Mr Ronin,
A question….
Are you an atheist or are you agnostic?

[Onebadcad]

SNS,
Good input, thanks.
I believe in grace and mercy.
The GOD of the OT was very rigid, and I believe Christ's main objective was to teach grace and mercy as evidenced with Mary Magdalene.
Jesus's teachings were also NOT exclusionary, all who came were fed.

There are countless benevolent, forthright and altruistic people who never came under the knowledge and teachings of Christ.
IMO they are worthy, as they exemplified the virtues that GOD enjoys viewing, the virtues for which we all aspire.

I may be wrong, I hope I am not.

[DAB]

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


No one talked Peter into believing that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. God alone revealed this to Peter. likewise, you are not going to convince or win an argument/debate with someone and make them a Christian.

God alone will give them a new heart and make them a believer. That's really good news, as the salvation of others is not my responsibility, it is solely God's problem. If He has chosen you to join Him in heaven, then He'll do what is required to get you there, and if not, then you'll go to hell and receive eternal punishment that is fit for your sins.

My only responsibility is to tell others the good news of the gospel, which i and others in this thread have done.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by DAB

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


No one talked Peter into believing that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. God alone revealed this to Peter. likewise, you are not going to convince or win an argument/debate with someone and make them a Christian.

God alone will give them a new heart and make them a believer. That's really good news, as the salvation of others is not my responsibility, it is solely God's problem. If He has chosen you to join Him in heaven, then He'll do what is required to get you there, and if not, then you'll go to hell and receive eternal punishment that is fit for your sins.

My only responsibility is to tell others the good news of the gospel, which i and others in this thread have done.

/thread.