For you Christians

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by DAB

ah, but as the Bible tells me:

John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

i'm securely in God's hands, my name was written in the Book of Life before the world began. so nothing can separate me from God. (see Romans 8:38).

so there is no supposed "proof" that will undo my belief.

so, what kind of proof would you accept.

I'm in no way challenging anyone's beliefs. I'm happy that true believers exist and they are almost always wonderful people to be around. I also truly enjoy discussions like these with people who have vastly different perspectives than I. I'm just saying that I don't believe in the same way. I have too many questions that can't be answered by "having faith."


In the bold though...that doesn't seem like a bit of a stretch? How can anything be "written" before there is a world with people in which to write it? So you dig deeper analytically (out of the literal) into the philosophical context of it, to me it sounds like the author is saying that God is "the Universe." And if that's the truth, cool. It's a title. Like any other synonym. A ball is a sphere, a bottle is also a container, and vice versa.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

Hard to say. Nobody in current times was alive when he was supposedly a person walking around, and the only knowledge of his existence comes from books authored by humans during that time in different languages translated with debatable accuracy.

Were scientists ever able to pull DNA from the Shroud of Turin?

The same can be said about Christopher Columbus…George Washington…and hundreds/thousands of other historical figures.

So do you believe they were real? Or do you need DNA evidence?

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by jw38

Wrong. This is what Catholics believe, but it's not found anywhere in the Bible.

Now...what the Bible DOES say...

John 4:16 - Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Only Jesus can forgive you of your sins. This is why the Bible says, Acts 4:12 - “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved”

(Only slightly sarcastic...no offense intended.)
Hate to point out the obvious, but I'm pretty sure that guy is dead. Does that also mean you'd have to meet him for him to forgive you? And since he's dead, I'm guessing he made it to heaven, which wouldn't that mean I'd need to be in heaven to ask him to forgive my sins to then get into heaven? But then how can I ask him anything, if I'm dead, and he's dead...is it just then our ethereal energy that's communicating? How does this work exactly?

[BRUIZER]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

(Only slightly sarcastic...no offense intended.)
Hate to point out the obvious, but I'm pretty sure that guy is dead. Does that also mean you'd have to meet him for him to forgive you? And since he's dead, I'm guessing he made it to heaven, which wouldn't that mean I'd need to be in heaven to ask him to forgive my sins to then get into heaven? But then how can I ask him anything, if I'm dead, and he's dead...is it just then our ethereal energy that's communicating? How does this work exactly?

Many of us ponder this.
However, I reached the conclusion a while back; I'd rather have faith and be wrong. Than having no faith and being wrong.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

(Only slightly sarcastic...no offense intended.)
Hate to point out the obvious, but I'm pretty sure that guy is dead. Does that also mean you'd have to meet him for him to forgive you? And since he's dead, I'm guessing he made it to heaven, which wouldn't that mean I'd need to be in heaven to ask him to forgive my sins to then get into heaven? But then how can I ask him anything, if I'm dead, and he's dead...is it just then our ethereal energy that's communicating? How does this work exactly?

Jesus was crucified and died. He was placed in the tomb and rose from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is with the Father.
The belief in the resurrection is the basis of Christian faith.

[Onebadcad]

Good posts in here, thanks.

My take:
1) The is an Omnipotent Creator, HE is the Supreme Authority, we are a much lesser race
2) Our universe did not come from nothing, the matter was provided by GOD, this could have been shown much easier but then there would no need for faith
3) You cannot make those who do not want to believe into believers, faith is not their pursuit
4) Earth is a test, GOD wants to be with those who love him for eternity, your character is best defined in your toughest times
5) If everyone goes to heaven Earth would not be necessary, many go to hell
6) 50% of overcoming is your own life's work, the other 50% is helping others to be their best
7) GOD IS NOT RELIGION, religion is man's teachings of GOD's writtten works, much is flawed here as man is greatly flawed
8) My concern is not to make you believe in GOD, no one makes you believe anything
9) GOD is good and merciful, many have not heard of JESUS CHRIST due to when they were born or where they lived, Heaven is attainable without knowing JESUS CHRIST
10) Only your actions dictate your end, not your possessions or intellect or ego, the inhabitants of Heaven will be altruistic and noble

[DAB]

Christians also believe that the Bible (not the vatican version) is the inerrant, inspired, authoritative Word of God. God used men to tell us what He is.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

Heaven is attainable without knowing JESUS CHRIST

The Bible is 100% clear on that matter and absolutely refutes that assertion.

Originally Posted by John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by LATB

The same can be said about Christopher Columbus…George Washington…and hundreds/thousands of other historical figures.

So do you believe they were real? Or do you need DNA evidence?

It's a fair point. But the time gap was far less between those people compared to Jesus. Washington died 224 years ago and we're able to verify his existence through DNA. Columbus would be a bit harder to prove as he was a few hundred years before Washington. Jesus is much tougher to solve. His existence was nearly 2000 years ago and pretty much all remaining evidence of his life are only in words. Maybe if his body had been discovered/recovered...we could call his existence (or time on Earth) factual.

[WydGlydJim]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

You sure?

Biblical scholars state: God wrote the Bible through 40 writers, possibly fewer or more depending on how one views the authorship identification in respective books (e.g., The Epistle to the Hebrews), in 66 books, across at least 1,500 years, and in both Near Eastern Ancient culture and the Greco-Roman culture of the first century.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bibl...the-bible.html

Isaiah lived in the 8th century.....700-800 years...not sure what bolded you have contradicts that; let's say it was 1500.....that just makes the prophecy more so. good luck on your quest for knowledge..........I hope it brings you to the right conclusion. You have already had more than enough to make an informed choice.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

(Only slightly sarcastic...no offense intended.)
Hate to point out the obvious, but I'm pretty sure that guy is dead. Does that also mean you'd have to meet him for him to forgive you? And since he's dead, I'm guessing he made it to heaven, which wouldn't that mean I'd need to be in heaven to ask him to forgive my sins to then get into heaven? But then how can I ask him anything, if I'm dead, and he's dead...is it just then our ethereal energy that's communicating? How does this work exactly?

JESUS's earthly body perished, his eternal body has always been, before and after his time on earth.
Many say GOD decided not to have his earthly body remain here, as many would have said he was but a mere mortal, and the proof would have been his corpse.
JESUS's remains have never been found, as stated, his tomb was empty on the third day, the bandages he was wrapped in were left in the tomb.
The boulder that sealed the tomb was moved, no one can explain how the tomb door was moved while under watch by Roman and Jewsih guards.

For reference, Enoch and Elijah did not have to face death:

Genesis 5:21-24
21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2 Kings 2:11
11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

And many believe Moses did not have to see death, his grave was never found.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

It's a fair point. But the time gap was far less between those people compared to Jesus. Washington died 224 years ago and we're able to verify his existence through DNA. Columbus would be a bit harder to prove as he was a few hundred years before Washington. Jesus is much tougher to solve. His existence was nearly 2000 years ago and pretty much all remaining evidence of his life are only in words. Maybe if his body had been discovered/recovered...we could call his existence factual.

You said earlier that truth could not be hidden by the passage of time.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by BRUIZER

Many of us ponder this.
However, I reached the conclusion a while back; I'd rather have faith and be wrong. Than having no faith and being wrong.

Rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

My only issue with that (religion specific) is there are no metrics to determine what level of "it" is required for acceptance.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

It's a fair point. But the time gap was far less between those people compared to Jesus. Washington died 224 years ago and we're able to verify his existence through DNA. Columbus would be a bit harder to prove as he was a few hundred years before Washington. Jesus is much tougher to solve. His existence was nearly 2000 years ago and pretty much all remaining evidence of his life are only in words. Maybe if his body had been discovered/recovered...we could call his existence factual.

As said, if faith was easy there would be no reason for our life on Earth.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

And many believe Moses did not have to see death, his grave was never found.

Deuteronomy 34:5-7

So Moses, the Eternal’s servant, died there in the land of Moab, just as the Eternal had said. 6 He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was 120 years old when he died, but his eyesight hadn’t failed and his strength hadn’t diminished.

God didn't want the Israelites setting up another idol to worship, that's why his place of burial was hidden.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

Rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

My only issue with that (religion specific) is there are no metrics to determine what level of "it" is required for acceptance.

Here is the problem with that...true Christianity isn't religion.

Has man warped it in some denominations? Absolutely...the problem is fellow man was never the measuring stick, we are a broken people. Look around the world. It is Christ, and we can't live up to him. Hence the crucifiction of a blameless individual to pay for sins he never committed.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

JESUS's earthly body perished, his eternal body has always been, before and after his time on earth.
Many say GOD decided not to have his earthly body remain here, as many would have said he was but a mere mortal, and the proof would have been his corpse.
JESUS's remains have never been found, as stated, his tomb was empty on the third day, the bandages he was wrapped in were left in the tomb.
The boulder that sealed the tomb was moved, no one can explain how the tomb door was moved while under watch by Roman and Jewsih guards.

For reference, Enoch and Elijah did not have to face death:




And many believe Moses did not have to see death, his grave was never found.

I do enjoy the book of Enoch. Bummer it's not included in the new testament. Kind of sounds like God took him up in a spaceship. I brought up the Shroud of Turin earlier...why won't they let scientists DNA test it????

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Deuteronomy 34:5-7

So Moses, the Eternal’s servant, died there in the land of Moab, just as the Eternal had said. 6 He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was 120 years old when he died, but his eyesight hadn’t failed and his strength hadn’t diminished.

God didn't want the Israelites setting up another idol to worship, that's why his place of burial was hidden.

I agree, but many will say a body not being found could be due to GOD allowed him not to taste death.

Moses is mentioned more than once in JESUS's teachings, and this is an account of his presence.
His presence, to some, bolsters the belief he was given special dispensation.

MATTHEW 17
Moses and Elijah Appear with Jesus

After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John (the brother of James) and led them up a high mountain where they could be alone.

2 Jesus’ appearance changed in front of them. His face became as bright as the sun and his clothes as white as light. 3 Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared to them and were talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it’s good that we’re here. If you want, I’ll put up three tents here—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

5 He was still speaking when a bright cloud overshadowed them. Then a voice came out of the cloud and said, “This is my Son, whom I love and with whom I am pleased. Listen to him!”

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Here is the problem with that...true Christianity isn't religion.

Has man warped it in some denominations? Absolutely...the problem is fellow man was never the measuring stick, we are a broken people. Look around the world. It is Christ, and we can't live up to him. Hence the crucifiction of a blameless individual to pay for sins he never committed.

Could not agree more.

That also has me struggling with "faith" as a concept. If the deities truly love mankind, why leave us to destroy ourselves? Now more than ever in our existence, mankind could use an assist from the "big guy." Only to be met with more destruction, evil, and sin. It seems so hypocritical that some of the most deeply religious people on Earth are far and away the most violent, vengeful, and hateful.

[DAB]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Here is the problem with that...true Christianity isn't religion.

Has man warped it in some denominations? Absolutely...the problem is fellow man was never the measuring stick, we are a broken people. Look around the world. It is Christ, and we can't live up to him. Hence the crucifiction of a blameless individual to pay for sins he never committed.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.