But They'll Make it Up in Volume: GM Loses $ 1.7B on EV's in ONE QUARTER

[vettemed]

Dealers and Unions. 2 things that Tesla is unencumbered by.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Unsuspicious

I know a few people who bought Bolts, they are all well off people who could certainly afford much more expensive cars but they are the type to be frugal. Making an economy end EV really doesn't seem like it has much of an audience if the affordability falls in the range of apartment dwellers with no place to charge it.
So what's the target? Homeowners with budgets that are make or break on a few hundred every month? Homeowners who hate Elon? Homeowners with jobless loser grown kids still living at home but wanting new car?

https://dailycaller.com/2024/01/31/b...ger-subsidies/

Biden Admin Classifies Martha’s Vineyard, Elite Locales As ‘Low-Income’ To Push EV Charger Subsidies



Nick Pope
Contributor
January 31, 2024 8:34 AM ET
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The Biden administration is classifying some of the country’s most elite and exclusive locales as “low-income” areas, making them eligible for electric vehicle (EV) charger subsidy programs.

The administration’s EV charger tax credit program — made possible by the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), President Joe Biden’s signature climate bill — is specifically designed to route subsidies to “low-income” or “non-urban” areas of the country. The “low-income” emphasis for eligibility aligns in spirit with the Biden administration’s wider pursuit of so-called “environmental justice,” which is effectively the combination of social justice ideology and green policy.

Numerous elite hangouts and locales — including Montauk and Fishers Island in New York, and parts of Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket in Massachusetts — are among the areas that the administration has classified as “low-income” and eligible for receipt of EV charger subsidies, according to a Daily Caller News Foundation analysis of the Department of Energy’s (DOE) interactive eligibility map.

Building out a nationwide charging network is a key supporting plank of the Biden administration’s EV agenda, but the charging infrastructure that currently exists is concentrated in wealthier, more densely-populated coastal regions of the country. The Biden administration’s tax credit program is designed to blunt the costs of charger construction specifically in non-urban, less wealthy parts of the country that would be less likely to install them.

“This tax credit provides up to 30% off the cost of the charger to individuals and businesses in low-income communities and non-urban areas, making it more affordable to install EV charging infrastructure and increasing access to EV charging in underserved communities,” the White House stated on Jan. 19.

To meet the “low-income” definition, a given Census tract must have a poverty rate of 20% or more. Alternatively, an area can qualify if the median family income is below 80% of the median family income in the wider metropolitan area or in its state if a given Census tract is not part of any particular metropolitan area, according to section 45D(e) of the Internal Revenue Code.

In practice, however, the latter definition for a “low-income” area enables places that may not be colloquially considered “low-income” to qualify for the credit by virtue of being located in a wealthy state or metropolitan area.

[sublime1996525]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

That plus a lack of manufacturing efficiency. Tesla invested heavily in things like robots and the Gigapress, which lowers their production costs tremendously.

Yep. It’s also a good thing the big 3 have that amazing union that’s saving all those poor workers from being held accountable.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Again, they are making a profit, just not as high as it used to be. Wait for interest rates to drop, you will see prices go back up and profits rising. High interest rates are hard on the economy, especially for businesses whose products are usually purchased using credit.

IMO, telsa finest hour has already passed.
When, not if, TRUMP wins, I feel the EV Market will take an even harder hit than what is currently taking place.
I fully understand the cost of credit, and also know that other non-telsa cars will have the same advantage.

'I love the smell of an ICE engine warming up in the morning.'

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by vettemed

Dealers and Unions. 2 things that Tesla is unencumbered by.

And quality. Tesla is unencumbered by that as well. Even our local Tesla leg-humper admits that.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

And quality. Tesla is unencumbered by that as well. Even our local Tesla leg-humper admits that.

How difficult is quality when:

Gas-powered vehicles have as many as 2,000 components in their powertrains.
telsa said its drivetrain has 17 moving parts, including just 2 in the motor.

[Steve_R]

Quality isn't difficult, but when your target audience doesn't care and will buy your products with poor quality, why bother with Quality Control?

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Quality isn't difficult, but when your target audience doesn't care and will buy your products with poor quality, why bother with Quality Control?

Sounds like a cult, kinda like the PT Cruiser loyalists.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

IMO, telsa finest hour has already passed.
When, not if, TRUMP wins, I feel the EV Market will take an even harder hit than what is currently taking place.
I fully understand the cost of credit, and also know that other non-telsa cars will have the same advantage.

'I love the smell of an ICE engine warming up in the morning.'

ICE cars will eventually die out as battery technology advances. We already have batteries that can go over 600 miles and charge in 5 to 10 minutes but it takes time to build factories to produce them in sufficient numers. The technology is there and once cars keep rolling off assembly lines in masses with over 600 mile range and 5 to 10 mins charging time, barely anyone will buy gas cars anymore, considering that as they are scaling for those new batteries, the charging network is growing at fast speed. ICE is on the way out. Sure, we will have USED gas cars for decades but once the only disadvantages of EV's are gone, most will go with EV's. The ones opposing EVS are mostly old folks who won't be around anymore when EVs will represent most or all new cars sold.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

How difficult is quality when:

Gas-powered vehicles have as many as 2,000 components in their powertrains.
telsa said its drivetrain has 17 moving parts, including just 2 in the motor.

Current Tesla models rarely have any issues with motors and batteries. Most of the issue are things like fit and finish and no major technical issues.
My issues were: Yoke steering wheel peeling, Center console cupholder won't stay retracted, 2 different weatherstripping issues, alignment issue with falcon wing door and a dented front bumper upon delivery (not really a manufacturing defect but an issue during transport). Nothing that would cause me to lose use of my vehicle. Most of those things were resolved with a mobile visit to my home.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

ICE cars will eventually die out as battery technology advances. We already have batteries that can go over 600 miles and charge in 5 to 10 minutes but it takes time to build factories to produce them in sufficient numers. The technology is there and once cars keep rolling off assembly lines in masses with over 600 mile range and 5 to 10 mins charging time, barely anyone will buy gas cars anymore, considering that as they are scaling for those new batteries, the charging network is growing at fast speed. ICE is on the way out. Sure, we will have USED gas cars for decades but once the only disadvantages of EV's are gone, most will go with EV's. The ones opposing EVS are mostly old folks who won't be around anymore when EVs will represent most or all new cars sold.

Most in here are VERY aware of ALL factors in the play in the automobile industry, AND also the BS slanted politics.

We are more concerned with the availability of gasoline and limiting all the BS legislation which is expediting the certain death.

Lastly, we do not want our lifestyles legislated to us, we want our choices to remain our choices.

Pretty effing soon these same idiot pols will tell us the size of TVs we can buy, and limit the number of TVs in our home.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

ICE cars will eventually die out as battery technology advances. We already have batteries that can go over 600 miles and charge in 5 to 10 minutes but it takes time to build factories to produce them in sufficient numers. The technology is there and once cars keep rolling off assembly lines in masses with over 600 mile range and 5 to 10 mins charging time, barely anyone will buy gas cars anymore, considering that as they are scaling for those new batteries, the charging network is growing at fast speed. ICE is on the way out. Sure, we will have USED gas cars for decades but once the only disadvantages of EV's are gone, most will go with EV's. The ones opposing EVS are mostly old folks who won't be around anymore when EVs will represent most or all new cars sold.

You'll be among those who are long gone when EVs represent most or all new cars sold. The charging network for fast charging, especially in rural and high-density areas, simply doesn't exist and won't for many, many years, if ever.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

ICE cars will eventually die out as battery technology advances. We already have batteries that can go over 600 miles and charge in 5 to 10 minutes but it takes time to build factories to produce them in sufficient numers. The technology is there and once cars keep rolling off assembly lines in masses with over 600 mile range and 5 to 10 mins charging time, barely anyone will buy gas cars anymore, considering that as they are scaling for those new batteries, the charging network is growing at fast speed. ICE is on the way out. Sure, we will have USED gas cars for decades but once the only disadvantages of EV's are gone, most will go with EV's. The ones opposing EVS are mostly old folks who won't be around anymore when EVs will represent most or all new cars sold.

I’m an old guy and I don’t oppose EV’s. I’ll never own one and I don’t agree that ICE will go away. The big push towards EV is the climate change crowd who have their ignorant minions believing that EV’s are actually better for the environment.

[Unsuspicious]

Stockpiling fossil fuels will always be more efficient than storing electricity. Maybe it will be better to burn fuel to make electricity instead of each car doing the burning, but it's a relocation not a replacement.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

Most in here are VERY aware of ALL factors in the play in the automobile industry, AND also the BS slanted politics.

We are more concerned with the availability of gasoline and limiting all the BS legislation which is expediting the certain death.

Lastly, we do not want our lifestyles legislated to us, we want our choices to remain our choices.

Pretty effing soon these same idiot pols will tell us the size of TVs we can buy, and limit the number of TVs in our home.

Nobody here on this forum has ever suggested to BAN gas cars. I've always been a fan of CHOICE for everything. However, once there are no more down sides to EV's, they will take over. Yes, it can take decades for factories to scale to produce sufficient batteries for those vehicles, but it will happen.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

You'll be among those who are long gone when EVs represent most or all new cars sold. The charging network for fast charging, especially in rural and high-density areas, simply doesn't exist and won't for many, many years, if ever.

I'm 52, and I think that in 20 years from now, all new cars or virtually all new cars will be electric (unless another superior technology emerges). I will be 72 by then, so I'm pretty sure I'll get to see it. I never cared much what others drive. I certainly will either own a classic car or a sports car that are gas powered as a weekend car. As I've said before, I have ZERO against gas cars but they make no sense for me as DAILY DRIVERS based on my usage pattern and travel style. Everyone should choose a car based on their needs.
I'm not in favor of forcing anyone but if you get 600 mile range in 5 minutes charging at the same price as a gas car, it's a no brainer for most.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

I’m an old guy and I don’t oppose EV’s. I’ll never own one and I don’t agree that ICE will go away. The big push towards EV is the climate change crowd who have their ignorant minions believing that EV’s are actually better for the environment.

As I said in previous posts, I'm 100% for choice and everyone should buy what works for them. However, in the next 2 decades, ICE will likely go away in the new car market.. All it takes is batteries that can travel far enough and charge far enough to overcome any down sides of EV's. There are less moving parts on the EV powertrain, requiring less maintenance. if you have a 600 mile battery that charges in 5 mins and you have sufficient charging stations, why would anyone want a new gas car that will have a lot more maintenance and a vehicle that you can't fuel at home like you can fuel an EV? I don't think that anyone needs to be forced to switch once EV's get ranges and charging time similar to gas.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I'm 52, and I think that in 20 years from now, all new cars or virtually all new cars will be electric (unless another superior technology emerges). I will be 72 by then, so I'm pretty sure I'll get to see it.

So, you really believe that in just 20 years the fast charging infrastructure will be readily available literally to everyone, everywhere, in the U.S? If so, a couple of questions for you:

- How much will it cost to install that infrastructure nationwide?
- Where will all that "new" electricity come from since that generation capacity doesn't currently exist?

You keep saying the bottleneck is battery production. I offer that a vast new charging network, along with significant new electricity production, is a MUCH bigger problem than battery manufacturing.

If that ever does happen it will take trillions of dollars and way more than 20 years IMO.

[Torqaholic]

Live by the woke
Die by the woke

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

So, you really believe that in just 20 years the fast charging infrastructure will be readily available literally to everyone, everywhere, in the U.S? If so, a couple of questions for you:

- How much will it cost to install that infrastructure nationwide?
- Where will all that "new" electricity come from since that generation capacity doesn't currently exist?

If that ever does happen it will take trillions of dollars and way more than 20 years IMO.

In 20 years, fast chargers will be at every corner. A Tesla Supercharger costs $40000 per stall. A gas pump costs between $16k and $21k per pump, so half the price. However, the mark up on electricity is much higher, so, whoever installs them will get a better ROI. Gas stations make a minimal mark up per gallon while electricity at fast chargers is sold at 400% of the cost of electricity or even more.