View Full Version : AR-15 related question for the gun enthusiasts here.
Cybercowboy
10-09-2017, 11:22am
I have a really nice Colt AR-15 Sporter Match HBAR that I got for my wife back in the 80's when she was shooting iron sight competitions. This rifle is set up to be very accurate with just iron sights, but I want to put a holographic sight or some other type of sight to make it more fun to shoot outside the 100-yard range. The rifle has the upper with the carry handle, and stock heat shields with no Picatinny/Weaver mounting rails at all.
So, I know there are a variety of carry handle rails like these (https://www.brownells.com/aspx/Mink/Default.aspx?page=ar15-handle-mount.aspx) that allow you to mount an optic of some sort, either right on the handle or ahead of it. It would be nice to maybe have just a red dot sight, and also maybe a 2x power optical sight, or a holographic perhaps.
Anyone have some experience with this that would want to share their recommendations? I can also go ahead and get new heat shields or whatever they are called with integrated rails or at least places you can put rails, but I'm not planning on putting a light or laser or night vision stuff on this rifle, at least not yet. Also I don't want it for home defense, already have that covered.
69camfrk
10-09-2017, 11:36am
I like the Eotech holographic sights. They are pricey, but well built and reliable. What I would not do is pay 600 bux for one of their magnifiers though. You can get cheap ones that do the same thing and won't degrade the sight whatsoever. If you want to keep it under $200, Vortex makes a decent red dot scope.:seasix:
Cybercowboy
10-09-2017, 11:48am
Wow, almost $1000 for a 1x holographic sight?
Eotech kind of suck on carry handles and work better on a flat top AR. That being said, I sent both my Eotechs back to the factory when the massive zero drift issues surfaced and I got my money back. Lastly Eotechs are better are CQB distances.
The best optic for a carry handle is still the ACOG. There are many to choose from, and they are great at distance.
Or you could go old school and put on an original Colt 4 power scope like I did. I got this set up back in the day. Still have it. Shoots great.
Cybercowboy
10-09-2017, 1:06pm
Nox, do you have an ACOG laying around in a box somewhere that you're not using? :lol:
Cybercowboy
10-09-2017, 1:26pm
Nox, I'll check that Colt scope out! What do you think of the Leupold VX-R Patrol in this application?
Nox, I'll check that Colt scope out! What do you think of the Leupold VX-R Patrol in this application?
Leupold makes outstanding optics. Any optic with reticle will be better than a holographic red dot optic beyond 100 yards. RDS work best at close in distances for rapid target acquisition. If you’re interested in shots beyond 100 yards on a regular basis, your reticle optics are the way to go.
I use an RDS because almost all of my work is from 1 to 100 yards. However, when I am working beyond 100 yards, I usually go to a standard reticle.
Cybercowboy
10-09-2017, 1:52pm
Leupold makes outstanding optics. Any optic with reticle will be better than a holographic red dot optic beyond 100 yards. RDS work best at close in distances for rapid target acquisition. If you’re interested in shots beyond 100 yards on a regular basis, your reticle optics are the way to go.
I use an RDS because almost all of my work is from 1 to 100 yards. However, when I am working beyond 100 yards, I usually go to a standard reticle.
Yes, I have a regular 4x Leupold scope on a 6.5x55 mauser and it's great. BTW your AR-15 picture is, as far as I can tell, identical to mine. I see no reason to change out the stock or heat shield. If I want to go with a full rail setup I'll just get a new rifle to start with I think. This one is damn cool the way it is. I already ordered a short rail made to mount on a M16 carry handle, so now I'm just going to find a decent reticle optic and mounting rings and go that route. I like that you can use the iron sights with the scope mounted, that's pretty sweet.
Yes, I have a regular 4x Leupold scope on a 6.5x55 mauser and it's great. BTW your AR-15 picture is, as far as I can tell, identical to mine. I see no reason to change out the stock or heat shield. If I want to go with a full rail setup I'll just get a new rifle to start with I think. This one is damn cool the way it is. I already ordered a short rail made to mount on a M16 carry handle, so now I'm just going to find a decent reticle optic and mounting rings and go that route. I like that you can use the iron sights with the scope mounted, that's pretty sweet.
I have a few ARs to choose from so I just opted to keep the Colt Sporter H-Bar in original condition. That’s why I went with the old school Colt scope. However, in a pinch, you can just throw a complete A4 flat top upper on the Sporter and it becomes an M-4, albeit with a fixed stock. It takes 2 seconds.
And with most RDS, you should be able to co-witness. I have 1/3 lower co-witness on all my RDS optics so I can use my irons if I need to.
Cybercowboy
10-09-2017, 2:12pm
I have a few ARs to choose from so I just opted to keep the Colt Sporter H-Bar in original condition. That’s why I went with the old school Colt scope. However, in a pinch, you can just throw a complete A4 flat top upper on the Sporter and it becomes an M-4, albeit with a fixed stock. It takes 2 seconds.
And with most RDS, you should be able to co-witness. I have 1/3 lower co-witness on all my RDS optics so I can use my irons if I need to.
Yeah in my searches on this I saw a A4 flat top kit that looked really nice for under $400, with charging handle too. I haven't modified the AR platform ever so this is a learning experience for me.
Yeah in my searches on this I saw a A4 flat top kit that looked really nice for under $400, with charging handle too. I haven't modified the AR platform ever so this is a learning experience for me.
Just make sure it comes with the bolt carrier group also. Also, even though they sell them, any upper with less than 16 inch barrel will have to be registered as an SBR so be careful. I prefer 1:8 or 1:9 barrels, but everyone’s mileage varies. I shoot M-193 almost exclusively, so 1:9 is good to go for me.
markids77
10-09-2017, 7:22pm
Carry handle mounted optics are a compromise because they end up so far above the bore centerline. If you are willing to build a separate upper to mount an optic might I suggest you simply swap your barrel assembly onto a stripped flat top upper? If you own a torque wrench, you can acquire a new upper receiver, and the tooling to do the swap for about $100.00 all in if you eschew the dust door and forward assist. First time should take less than an hour, and you can mount the sight of your dreams down low as it should be.
Also be aware that some Colt lowers use a different diameter push pin than the current industry standard. If you get a stripped upper or build a complete upper make certain you acquire parts that fit your gun.
Cybercowboy
10-12-2017, 12:23pm
Anybody have any comment on this complete upper (http://midstatefirearms.com/MSF-16-556-223-Wylde-AR15-Upper-w-BCG-Charging-Handle-16uppercomp.htm), perhaps with the nickle-boron BCG upgrade?
Anybody have any comment on this complete upper (http://midstatefirearms.com/MSF-16-556-223-Wylde-AR15-Upper-w-BCG-Charging-Handle-16uppercomp.htm), perhaps with the nickle-boron BCG upgrade?
Not familiar with this particular upper, but .223 Wylde is the way to go. No front sight?
Cybercowboy
10-12-2017, 4:31pm
Not familiar with this particular upper, but .223 Wylde is the way to go. No front sight?
No, but I did also get a Vortex Optics StrikeFire 2 Red/Green Dot Sight, Vortex VMX-3T Magnifier with Flip Mount, and a flip up optics cover for the magnifier. I will then see, after all is said and done, what to do about iron sights. If any. I need a front sight with a red dot? Or I need it if the red dot doesn't work for some reason? Uhh...
Also I will be able to swap the red dot and magnifier to the old upper if I want at any time, and leave that totally as-is. Just got done going through the entire rifle with a fine tooth comb, it's in perfect shape and all nice, clean, lubed up. Also got an adapter pin for the large front take-down hole on the old Colt lower. Will make taking the upper totally off the lower a tiny bit more annoying, but that's OK. So I'll have two AR's now. A really nice 20" heavy barrel iron sight rifle and an M4-style flat-top with plenty of rail room for add-ons, and my first was a curved foregrip.
Nox, I'm probably screwing up on some level but I really wanted to scratch that gun itch and I have plenty of handguns, and now at any point I can just buy another lower and *poof* have two AR's, one .223 only, and this Wylde.
No, but I did also get a Vortex Optics StrikeFire 2 Red/Green Dot Sight, Vortex VMX-3T Magnifier with Flip Mount, and a flip up optics cover for the magnifier. I will then see, after all is said and done, what to do about iron sights. If any. I need a front sight with a red dot? Or I need it if the red dot doesn't work for some reason? Uhh...
Also I will be able to swap the red dot and magnifier to the old upper if I want at any time, and leave that totally as-is. Just got done going through the entire rifle with a fine tooth comb, it's in perfect shape and all nice, clean, lubed up. Also got an adapter pin for the large front take-down hole on the old Colt lower. Will make taking the upper totally off the lower a tiny bit more annoying, but that's OK. So I'll have two AR's now. A really nice 20" heavy barrel iron sight rifle and an M4-style flat-top with plenty of rail room for add-ons, and my first was a curved foregrip.
Nox, I'm probably screwing up on some level but I really wanted to scratch that gun itch and I have plenty of handguns, and now at any point I can just buy another lower and *poof* have two AR's, one .223 only, and this Wylde.
Front and rear sights though optional, are great for back up in the event your optic takes a dump. In your case you may not need it. They make add on front sights if you ever need them.
Cybercowboy
10-12-2017, 6:44pm
Front and rear sights though optional, are great for back up in the event your optic takes a dump. In your case you may not need it. They make add on front sights if you ever need them.
Right, I should have amended my post as I took the 20 seconds out of my day to verify this very thing! :lol: Shit man, I am just goofing around with this and trying not to make my wife mad about messing with "her" AR. After I mount my optics I will probably reconsider something or other and adding backup sights to this thing will be something I'll consider possibly but it's doubtful I'll be out in the desert with this thing in survival mode. Well, unless Elizabeth Warren wins in 2020...
Most likely sometime this winter I'll build a compatible lower for the new parts and have a essentially a .556 carbine.
JRD77VET
10-12-2017, 6:59pm
Or you could go old school and put on an original Colt 4 power scope like I did. I got this set up back in the day. Still have it. Shoots great.
What type/brand of A2 scope mount is that?
Thanks
markids77
10-12-2017, 8:28pm
Anybody have any comment on this complete upper (http://midstatefirearms.com/MSF-16-556-223-Wylde-AR15-Upper-w-BCG-Charging-Handle-16uppercomp.htm), perhaps with the nickle-boron BCG upgrade?
If you purchase that upper find some rail covers and get them to arrive about the same time the upper does. These are snap in plastic fillers that will ease a lot of the sharp edges found on that handguard, and make long range sessions more tolerable. Or upgrade to a more modern style when you order.
Cybercowboy
10-13-2017, 7:45am
If you purchase that upper find some rail covers and get them to arrive about the same time the upper does. These are snap in plastic fillers that will ease a lot of the sharp edges found on that handguard, and make long range sessions more tolerable. Or upgrade to a more modern style when you order.
I'm going to run a foregrip on it. The "sharp edges" seriously don't bother me.
What type/brand of A2 scope mount is that?
Thanks
It’s an original Colt 4 power scope.
Cybercowboy
10-14-2017, 3:35pm
Got my red dot today, still waiting on all the other things. So I decided what the hell, let's mount it on the carry handle to see how it looks. Other than ridiculous, at least the Vortex StrikeFire 2 red/green dot sight is really pretty nice for the money. Not sure if I'll stay with the cantilever mount or not, but I need to have the magnifier mounted behind it so both are on the upper receiver and not touching the hand guard rail, so it very well may be this is the right mount to use.
https://i.imgur.com/4APL5Bg.jpg
JRD77VET
10-15-2017, 9:55pm
It’s an original Colt 4 power scope.
folks sure are proud of them. they start at $400 and go up from there.
Cybercowboy
10-18-2017, 3:39pm
I got my new upper receiver today. Mated it with the old Colt A2 lower (had to use a front pin adapter thing) and the charging handle would not budge. Also it was hard to get the rear disassembly pin in place (like had to tap it in with a plastic hammer hard.) Long story short the new bolt carrier group I got, a nice nickle-boron jobber, will not work with the old lower. Which is interesting. The bolt from my original upper works fine with the new upper. I suspect it has to do with the lower's bolt retaining device (to keep the bolt held back) as the shape of the new BCG is different from the old one in that area. Essentially with the old BCG you can see about 1/2" of the firing pin, whereas with the new BCG there is more metal there and you can barely see the firing pin. The new BCG in general looks like it is assembled correctly and otherwise seems fine.
At any rate I need to try it with a newer lower to see exactly what is going on. The good news is the old BCG seems to fit the new upper great and although I haven't fired it yet I've tested magazines and chambering rounds and it all looks great. Most likely I'll be ordering a lower kit or maybe one pre-assembled and just have two complete rifles. Going to mount a bi-pod/foregrip on the hand guard too. The new upper is so much lighter than the old 20" H-Bar it's crazy.
https://i.imgur.com/iaNoMGo.jpg
I’ve mounted Daniel Defense, BCM, and Bushmaster uppers to a Colt Sporter lower with no issues whatsoever. Interesting that you had problems. Not sure why the BCG wouldn’t swap over, but be careful shooting it. Do a full function check before firing it for the first time.
Cybercowboy
10-19-2017, 8:39am
I’ve mounted Daniel Defense, BCM, and Bushmaster uppers to a Colt Sporter lower with no issues whatsoever. Interesting that you had problems. Not sure why the BCG wouldn’t swap over, but be careful shooting it. Do a full function check before firing it for the first time.
Yeah, it worried me too. I'm going to call Midstate today and see if there's anything they can tell me. The upper itself looks great though, and tests out just fine with the old BCG, no matter which charging handle I tried. I thoroughly cleaned and lubed everything before I tried putting the lower on. It's very weird that it is hard to get the rear take-down pin in place with the new nickle-boron bolt, but easy as pie with the old bolt.
Cybercowboy
10-20-2017, 11:15am
Got a new assembled lower coming. I couldn't find a better deal than this (https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/cmmg-ar-15-complete-semi-auto-lower-assembly-mil-spec-buffer-tube-6-position-stock-black-finish-55ca360-852005002523.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=fn) for a CMMG lower with an adjustable stock.
C5Longhorn
10-21-2017, 5:49pm
Hope the OP doesn't mind slight hijack that is AR related, does anyone have experience with Larue mounts?
Hope the OP doesn't mind slight hijack that is AR related, does anyone have experience with Larue mounts?
Yes. I run Larue mounts and they are simply the best. Their steak rub is good too.
C5Longhorn
10-21-2017, 6:32pm
Great thanks, agree on the steak rub. I also have one of their beverage extraction tools.
JRD77VET
10-22-2017, 7:35pm
It’s an original Colt 4 power scope.
Open to sight suggestions that won't break the bank.
Right is a Bushmaster DCM competition model in A2 configuration. Shoots extremely well and alterations are different pistol grip, bipod, leather shooting sling and weight removed from stock ( competition feature ). This would be longer range.
Left is a MP15 in A3 configuration. As purchased with a Troy two point battle sling.
Thanks
Jeff
Flatbush Harry
10-23-2017, 4:22pm
I have a really nice Colt AR-15 Sporter Match HBAR that I got for my wife back in the 80's when she was shooting iron sight competitions. This rifle is set up to be very accurate with just iron sights, but I want to put a holographic sight or some other type of sight to make it more fun to shoot outside the 100-yard range. The rifle has the upper with the carry handle, and stock heat shields with no Picatinny/Weaver mounting rails at all.
So, I know there are a variety of carry handle rails like these (https://www.brownells.com/aspx/Mink/Default.aspx?page=ar15-handle-mount.aspx) that allow you to mount an optic of some sort, either right on the handle or ahead of it. It would be nice to maybe have just a red dot sight, and also maybe a 2x power optical sight, or a holographic perhaps.
Anyone have some experience with this that would want to share their recommendations? I can also go ahead and get new heat shields or whatever they are called with integrated rails or at least places you can put rails, but I'm not planning on putting a light or laser or night vision stuff on this rifle, at least not yet. Also I don't want it for home defense, already have that covered.
Leupold offers a AR 15/M16 Handle Mount part no. 52136, that nicely fits the fixed carry handle of any variant of these rifles with carry handles. They are anodized matte aluminum and have a Picatinny Rail for accessory attachment. I have two uppers for my 1988 manufacture Colt AR15A2: the original upper with fixed carry handle on which this handle mount is used, and; a Colt M4 upper with integral Pic Rail on which I have mounted a Leupold VX-R Patrol scope in 1.25-4x24. I can easily switch the scope between uppers though I use a cheek riser for the fixed handle upper when I mount the scope. The part sells for roughly $30 IIRC.
I use the Leupy integral one piece ring/base mount for the scope.
Good luck,
Harry
markids77
10-23-2017, 6:45pm
Jeff, what is the sight budget? If you want a dot sight I think the best deal on the market currently is the Hi-lux micro-max at about $240 delivered, last one I bought was only $199. If that's steep, Bushnell has a nice (for the price) $50 unit which I do not own but have used. I make that recommendation with some trepidation since I have three broken Bushnell rifle scopes in a drawer here and will NEVER get another.
"Tactical" scope? ACOG unless $$$ is a factor then check out the new Redfield and Weaver lines. Both manufacturers get good press in publications I respect.
JRD77VET
10-23-2017, 7:00pm
Jeff, what is the sight budget? If you want a dot sight I think the best deal on the market currently is the Hi-lux micro-max at about $240 delivered, last one I bought was only $199. If that's steep, Bushnell has a nice (for the price) $50 unit which I do not own but have used. I make that recommendation with some trepidation since I have three broken Bushnell rifle scopes in a drawer here and will NEVER get another.
"Tactical" scope? ACOG unless $$$ is a factor then check out the new Redfield and Weaver lines. Both manufacturers get good press in publications I respect.
Sight budget just took a big hit with my transmission in the Suburban taking a crap.
I'm just window shopping for a bit now :kick:
Cybercowboy
10-24-2017, 11:38am
Got the new CMMG lower. Put it on with the new nickle-boron bolt installed, works great. Looks great too IMHO. I'll take it to the range this week and get it all sighted in.
https://i.imgur.com/RlVJWS7.jpg
Got the new CMMG lower. Put it on with the new nickle-boron bolt installed, works great. Looks great too IMHO. I'll take it to the range this week and get it all sighted in.
https://i.imgur.com/RlVJWS7.jpg
Kind of a roundabout way to end up with two complete rifles, but you still have the same issue with your original Colt Sporter that you began with. :rofl:
Open to sight suggestions that won't break the bank.
Right is a Bushmaster DCM competition model in A2 configuration. Shoots extremely well and alterations are different pistol grip, bipod, leather shooting sling and weight removed from stock ( competition feature ). This would be longer range.
Left is a MP15 in A3 configuration. As purchased with a Troy two point battle sling.
Thanks
Jeff
Realizing you are just window shopping at this time, I can only offer you advise as *I* would equip them, not necessarily the cheapest option. For the MP-15, I'd mount a Close Combat Optic. Your flat top upper is ideally suited for an RDS, and the one I'm currently using is the Aimpoint M68 (Comp M4). However, the Aimpoint PRO is also a nice and somewhat more affordable option. Prior to this, I was using the Eotech XPS 3-0, but their recent zero shift issues turned me off of them. I am told they have since been corrected, but I'm happy with the M68.
For the Bushmaster, I'd probably consider a purpose built optic made for the MK 12 Mod-0 SPRs. You can't go wrong with a Leupold MK AR, Nightforce NXS or Vortex Viper. ACOG is also a nice option. However, nothing is cheap. Generally speaking, proper optics can cost more than the rifle itself.
Cybercowboy
10-24-2017, 1:04pm
Kind of a roundabout way to end up with two complete rifles, but you still have the same issue with your original Colt Sporter that you began with. :rofl:
Well, it's not really a problem per se, I think leaving it the way it is will be the best thing. It's a really nice rifle for what it is, and my wife likes to shoot it (just hasn't in awhile) because it's heavy so very light recoil. And really, is it ever a problem to end up with another gun? :lol:
Also the strange mystery why the new BCG would not work with the old Sporter lower will forever remain a mystery. The old BCG woked fine in conjunction with both lowers BTW.
if the stock market keeps doing well, i just may have to get another AR pattern rifle to fill the last open space in the vault. have a SW MP-15 in 5.56mm, maybe something in 6.5 Creedmoor?
Well, it's not really a problem per se, I think leaving it the way it is will be the best thing. It's a really nice rifle for what it is, and my wife likes to shoot it (just hasn't in awhile) because it's heavy so very light recoil. And really, is it ever a problem to end up with another gun? :lol:
Also the strange mystery why the new BCG would not work with the old Sporter lower will forever remain a mystery. The old BCG woked fine in conjunction with both lowers BTW.
Well, I like what you've built up. It's very similar to what I actually carry and has served me well. I'm running an Aimpoint M68 CCO with a 3x flip magnifier (Larue mount). The stock is Crane SOPMOD and the front rail is a Knight's Armament Company RAS.
Flatbush Harry
10-24-2017, 6:41pm
Well, I like what you've built up. It's very similar to what I actually carry and has served me well. I'm running an Aimpoint M68 CCO with a 3x flip magnifier (Larue mount). The stock is Crane SOPMOD and the front rail is a Knight's Armament Company RAS.
I'll have to take a careful look at this. Thanks for the specs.
BTW, hello again, Robert, and my best to Sandy!
Hrary
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