The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Here are 2 factual dealer experiences.

In 2011, I was on the market for a new Hyundai Elantra (wanted a fuel efficient commuter car in addition to my Vettes), 6-speed, GLS (base version). I went to the closest dealer to my office (Brandon Hyundai) and asked if they have such car. They didn't but they said that they could get one for me from another Florida dealer. We agreed on a price and they ran my credit and approved my loan. I had a 2004 F250 V10 that I wanted to trade in. The truck had was in great shape and had a trade in value of $9800. They offered me $3000 for the truck which was a joke.. I said: "no, thanks, I'll sell the truck privately. I can get a lot more for it". When I rejected their trade in offer, they told me that if I won't trade my truck, the price of the car would go up $2k.
I basically told them to **** themselves and walked out. Found the car I wanted at an out of state dealer. Bought the car for the advertised price without any mark ups and drove it home from out of state.
BTW, I also ended up selling my F250 V10 for $11k privately.

So they told you exactly what was happening and why.

And somehow in your world, this is "misleading".

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I already talked about my other experience when I tried to buy an Ioniq 5 for my wife...They lied to me on the phone to get me into the door and they actually had $12k mark ups on their IONIQ 5's...

Bullshit again. Assuming that they actually did say what you claim (which is doubtful), you have absolutely no clue what the intent was. It could have been someone on the phone who made a simple mistake. You could have misheard them. It could be many things. No dealer on this planet is going to try to "sneak" $12,000 into a price and hope you don't notice. That's absolutely f**king stupid.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My main concern is not the financing part. My main concern is that people are misled to get them into the door so that they can have the advantage with inexperienced buyers. As I said, it's like a hobby tennis player plays a pro. It's not fair. As I said before, I'm a seasoned buyer with over 70 cars that I bought and sold. I don't fall for those things. I just tell them to **** themselves when they try to screw me over.

Interesting. Financing was your concern 6 minutes earlier.

Remember this?

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Dealers talk them into 84 month loans so that the payment looks low and the buyer doesn't realize that they will have to pay for 8 years.

I thought your argument was that dealers tricked them so that they didn't realize how many payments they had? Changing your argument to something else now?

I can't wait to hear what you make up next.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I'm not getting bamboozled by a fast talking sales person but many people do. I walked right out of the dealership when they tried to screw me. They kept calling me and I didn't pick up the phone. They left voice mails and I didn't call back.
Unfortunately, there are many who are not seasoned car buyers that get screwed.. Dealers talk them into 84 month loans so that the payment looks low and the buyer doesn't realize that they will have to pay for 8 years.

I guess it has no sense to continue discussing this. I favor more customer protections and others think that if people are stupid, they deserve to get screwed over by a fast talking sales person.

I personally don't fall for any scams or dealer games. I've owned over 70 cars in my life and I'm a seasoned car buyer. I just noticed that in RECENT years, the amount of misleading ads has increased a lot. It's not just ads. It's also talking people into things like extended warranty, often accompanied with lies like "In order to get you the low % interest rate, the bank wants you to have the extended warranty" etc. etc..
Yes, there are honest and ethical sales people but I'm not sure if it is a majority or minority. Yes, anybody should be able to make money and a profit but not by screwing people.

Let's just agree to disagree on that. We are talking in circles for the last couple of days.

If you were in your late teens, I could appreciate what you are saying but holy shit, as an adult, how is any of this not just a part of your general knowledge? Do you think Buy one get one free is a scam because they draw you in with something free, but then force you to buy one to get the free one? That is exactly what you are complaining about. How about credit scores? Ads that say your monthly payment is as low as $300.00 with approved credit. The approval is also a condition that must be met. Is that deceptive?

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Unfortunately, there are many who are not seasoned car buyers that get screwed.. Dealers talk them into 84 month loans so that the payment looks low and the buyer doesn't realize that they will have to pay for 8 years.

1. 8 years isn't 84 months.

2. If a buyer doesn't know how long the loan is, it's entirely their fault.

Most car buyers care about the monthly payment amount, not the length of the loan or the total of the payments including interest. No new law will change that.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

1. 8 years isn't 84 months.

I was going to let that part go. 🤣

[LATB]

Dealers talk them into 84 month loans so that the payment looks low and the buyer doesn't realize that they will have to pay for 8 years.

What?

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The problem is that those who advertise that way are COUNTING ON people not reading the small print.

Even UniqueDoug - an actual car dealer - was confused by the wording on a stealership advertisement offering "Up to $13,000 off."

If a car dealer get flummoxed what chance does Joe Sixpack have?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

So they told you exactly what was happening and why.

And somehow in your world, this is "misleading".



Bullshit again. Assuming that they actually did say what you claim (which is doubtful), you have absolutely no clue what the intent was. It could have been someone on the phone who made a simple mistake. You could have misheard them. It could be many things. No dealer on this planet is going to try to "sneak" $12,000 into a price and hope you don't notice. That's absolutely f**king stupid.

When we agreed on a price on the car I was buying, at no point did they say that it's conditional on my trade.
I did ask a very clear question: Are you marking up IONIQ5's or are you selling them at MSRP? The answer was that they are selling at MSRP. Clear Question, clear answer. The question was generic as we were looking at all the cars in stock to see which color combination my wife liked best. I would not have made the trip if they told me that they mark up the cars over MSRP.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Interesting. Financing was your concern 6 minutes earlier.

Remember this?



I thought your argument was that dealers tricked them so that they didn't realize how many payments they had? Changing your argument to something else now?

I can't wait to hear what you make up next.

My concern is them getting inexperienced car buyers into the door and then they are playing a game where the customer is the beginner and they are the experts and the outcome is predictable. It's like luring the prey..

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

When we agreed on a price on the car I was buying, at no point did they say that it's conditional on my trade.
I did ask a very clear question: Are you marking up IONIQ5's or are you selling them at MSRP? The answer was that they are selling at MSRP. Clear Question, clear answer. The question was generic as we were looking at all the cars in stock to see which color combination my wife liked best. I would not have made the trip if they told me that they mark up the cars over MSRP.

Talk is cheap. Unless you have it in writing you are whistling in the wind.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My concern is them getting inexperienced car buyers into the door and then they are playing a game where the customer is the beginner and they are the experts and the outcome is predictable. It's like luring the prey..

Jebus man. When will you get it. It is not the dealers responsibility or the governments responsibility to protect the greenhorns.
That’s what fathers are for.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

1. 8 years isn't 84 months.

2. If a buyer doesn't know how long the loan is, it's entirely their fault.

Most car buyers care about the monthly payment amount, not the length of the loan or the total of the payments including interest. No new law will change that.

I mistyped.. 8 is right beside 7 on the keyboard.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Jebus man. When will you get it. It is not the dealers responsibility or the governments responsibility to protect the greenhorns.
That’s what fathers are for.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to grow up with supportive parents. Unfortunately, too many people grow up in broken homes.
So, basically, you suggest to let them get screwed so that they learn, right?

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I mistyped.. 8 is right beside 7 on the keyboard.

So you meant 74 months is 8 years?

Or 74 months is 7 years?

Or 84 months is 7 years?

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by LATB

Jebus man. When will you get it. It is not the dealers responsibility or the governments responsibility to protect the greenhorns.
That’s what fathers are for.

I agree. He says he's a capitalist, but behaves like a socialist.

I'm going with socialist, as I go by a man's actions and not so much his words.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My concern is them getting inexperienced car buyers into the door and then they are playing a game where the customer is the beginner and they are the experts and the outcome is predictable. It's like luring the prey..

Why is that your concern? Who appointed you their guardians?

For at least the tenth time: What new law would prevent that? Be specific how it would prevent what you keep whining about.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Not everyone is fortunate enough to grow up with supportive parents. Unfortunately, too many people grow up in broken homes.
So, basically, you suggest to let them get screwed so that they learn, right?

Too ****ing bad.
Life is full of setbacks and often one will get kicked in the shins.
You grow up and learn.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

So you meant 74 months is 8 years?

Or 74 months is 7 years?

Or 84 months is 7 years?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My concern is them getting inexperienced car buyers into the door and then they are playing a game where the customer is the beginner and they are the experts and the outcome is predictable. It's like luring the prey..

Your views of this are a simple minded caricature of reality. You're blaming a fork for making people fat. You can't bring yourself to accept that people don't make the same choices that you make. That's not the government's responsibility. It sure as shit is not the dealership's responsibility. Stop with the bullshit narrative that dealers are tricking people. Stop acting like the reason that people do stupid shit is because they are tricked, misled, or somehow coerced into it. You need a villain. There isn't one.

The part that you don't seem to understand is that DEALERS DON'T HAVE TO TRICK PEOPLE.

Try to let that sink in for a minute. Read it again. Slowly. Dealers don't have to "lure" unsuspecting customers and then blindside them with fine print. Dealers don't have to trick them to get them to come in. The idiots do it on their own accord.

The truth in lending statements that I posted are EXACTLY what you keep saying needs to happen. It is all of the information, no fine print, no tricks. Guess what, it doesn't stop them from taking terrible loans. Wake the f**k up and accept the fact that stupid people do stupid things and there is nothing that you, I, or the government can do to stop it.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Talk is cheap. Unless you have it in writing you are whistling in the wind.

I guess, expecting someone to be honest is too much to ask..