The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My point is that when you are buying a home and you want to buy it for the advertised price, you usually can do so if you go with the lowest trim level. You are NOT forced to upgrade. A custom home is of course different. It's not a set price from the beginning.. I'm talking about buying a house from a developer, being able to choose from different models and trim levels. You will be able to get a house for the advertised price if you go with the lowest trim levels. Each "UPGRADE" will be priced separately and added IF THE CUSTOMER CHOOSES to.

And you are NOT forced to upgrade when you buy a car. It's your choice.

What, again, are you arguing? You've flopped back and forth more times than a newly caught fish on the deck of a boat.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Again, your entire argument is that disclosing every detail is "misleading"... because people are too lazy to read it.

Crazy thought, how about you actually take just a little bit of responsibility for your own shit.

You've now jumped from being too lazy to read Autotrader to dealers apparently sneaking things into contracts. Again, what in the shit are you even arguing?

Please detail what exactly these shady, unethical, and immoral new car franchise dealers can "sneak in" to the back end of a contract that will "screw" you. And keep in mind, your entire argument revolves around NEW cars, not "Bob's Buy Here Pay Here House of Used Shit."

The problem is that those who advertise that way are COUNTING ON people not reading the small print.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The problem is that those who advertise that way are COUNTING ON people not reading the small print.

Stop avoiding the question.

Tell us what, exactly, you think it is that "sneaky car dealers" are putting in the fine print of contracts

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

And you are NOT forced to upgrade when you buy a car. It's your choice.

What, again, are you arguing? You've flopped back and forth more times than a newly caught fish on the deck of a boat.

You are not UPGRADING anything. The typical $2000 off if you trade your vehicle (and they will give you crap for your trade in) and the $1000 if you finance with them (probably at a higher interest rate even though at times, they have factory promotions for low rates). So, if you are a cash buyer (or have like credit union financing for a lower rate), you will pay $3000 more than the price advertised. That's why those $3000 should not be automatically be taken off the advertised price.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Stop avoiding the question.

Tell us what, exactly, you think it is that "sneaky car dealers" are putting in the fine print of contracts

Let's say that the car is listed for $39999.
You show up at the dealership and want to close the deal.
You have no trade and bring your Credit Union financing.
You want to close the deal at the $39999 + tax, title and dealer fee and you are told. You are not trading anything, therefore the price is now $41999.. You are not financing with us, the price you pay before tax, title and dealer fee is now $42999. The small print also said that there may be dealer add ons: The car hat interior protection and a special paint treatment and that's another $2500, bringing the car that once was $39999 to $45499. That's what I have an issue with.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Let's say that the car is listed for $39999.
You show up at the dealership and want to close the deal.
You have no trade and bring your Credit Union financing.
You want to close the deal at the $39999 + tax, title and dealer fee and you are told. You are not trading anything, therefore the price is now $41999.. You are not financing with us, the price you pay before tax, title and dealer fee is now $42999. That's what I have an issue with.

Your argument is that you don't get money for your trade... when you don't have one?

Your argument is that you don't get a discount for financing... when you don't use the financing?

Holy shit.

That has nothing to do with "fine print". That's your inability to read very basic information.

EVERY PENNY IS ACCOUNTED FOR ON THE BILL OF SALE.

How in the shit could you possibly make the argument that they are "sneaking things in the fine print"?

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You are not UPGRADING anything. The typical $2000 off if you trade your vehicle (and they will give you crap for your trade in) and the $1000 if you finance with them (probably at a higher interest rate even though at times, they have factory promotions for low rates). So, if you are a cash buyer (or have like credit union financing for a lower rate), you will pay $3000 more than the price advertised. That's why those $3000 should not be automatically be taken off the advertised price.

This is the dumbest post yet from you, and that's saying a lot. If any of that happens you're too stupid to buy a car. Here's a step-by-step guide to help you next time you buy a car:

1. Do your research on what similar cars sell for and what your trade is worth.
2. When you negotiate, the only thing that matters is what you pay, NOT the price of the car or the value of your trade in.
3. DO NOT discuss financing, payment amount, or anything remotely related to how you'll pay for it until you've agreed on the final price and both you and the dealer have signed it. READ EVERY WORD BEFORE YOU SIGN.

After you've done those things, and ONLY after you've done them, discuss financing, incentives, how you'll pay, etc. DO NOT get hung up on what your car is worth like most buyers do; the ONLY thing that matters is the difference. How they get there doesn't matter.

I've successfully done this many, many times and it usually catches the salesman off guard, but it works. When we bought the new Explorer last month I told the salesman the difference I was willing to pay between the new one and our trade, and that how they got there didn't matter to me. I also told him I would not pay for the special ceramic wax or door edge guards, which they took off of the price. It took us less than 30 minutes to agree on a price and sign the agreement.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The small print also said that there may be dealer add ons: The car hat interior protection and a special paint treatment and that's another $2500, bringing the car that once was $39999 to $45499. That's what I have an issue with.

Your issue is basic reading comprehension.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Let's say that the car is listed for $39999.
You show up at the dealership and want to close the deal.
You have no trade and bring your Credit Union financing.
You want to close the deal at the $39999 + tax, title and dealer fee and you are told. You are not trading anything, therefore the price is now $41999.. You are not financing with us, the price you pay before tax, title and dealer fee is now $42999. The small print also said that there may be dealer add ons: The car hat interior protection and a special paint treatment and that's another $2500, bringing the car that once was $39999 to $45499. That's what I have an issue with.

So negotiate your best deal or walk away. Welcome to the capitalist market.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

This is the dumbest post yet from you, and that's saying a lot. If any of that happens you're too stupid to buy a car. Here's a step-by-step guide to help you next time you buy a car:

1. Do your research on what similar cars sell for and what your trade is worth.
2. When you negotiate, the only thing that matters is what you pay, NOT the price of the car or the value of your trade in.
3. DO NOT discuss financing, payment amount, or anything remotely related to how you'll pay for it until you've agreed on the final price and both you and the dealer have signed it. READ EVERY WORD BEFORE YOU SIGN.

After you've done those things, and ONLY after you've done them, discuss financing, incentives, how you'll pay, etc. DO NOT get hung up on what your car is worth like most buyers do; the ONLY thing that matters is the difference. How they get there doesn't matter.

I've successfully done this many, many times and it usually catches the salesman off guard, but it works. When we bought the new Explorer last month I told the salesman the difference I was willing to pay between the new one and our trade, and that how they got there didn't matter to me. I also told him I would not pay for the special ceramic wax or door edge guards, which they took off of the price. It took us less than 30 minutes to agree on a price and sign the agreement.

Speaking as someone who has sold thousands of vehicles, I agree with MOST of this... however I disagree completely with the part about not discussing financing as a part of the deal. If you don't, I'm 100% going to assume the worst case and negotiate price accordingly.

If I know that I have a kicker coming in from financing, I know I can pull a little more from the price. That could benefit you, the buyer. As I said, I'm assuming the worst otherwise... and I'm sure as hell not going to volunteer it at the end. People also make the mistake of thinking that they are doing something beneficial by using "their" credit union. Spoiler alert, dealers have agreements in place with just about every credit union in the area. "Your" credit union... is also mine.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My point is that when you are buying a home and you want to buy it for the advertised price, you usually can do so if you go with the lowest trim level. You are NOT forced to upgrade. A custom home is of course different. It's not a set price from the beginning.. I'm talking about buying a house from a developer, being able to choose from different models and trim levels. You will be able to get a house for the advertised price if you go with the lowest trim levels. Each "UPGRADE" will be priced separately and added IF THE CUSTOMER CHOOSES to.

I challenge you to go to any large tract development and you will see a big sign. Example: “Homes from $399,000” and try to buy one for that price.
Hint: you won’t.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Not talking about one tank.. getting free fuel for the life of the vehicle. It's like expecting free cable to be included with your TV. That's extremely obvious.

Ok then what’s your point?

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Let's say that the car is listed for $39999.
You show up at the dealership and want to close the deal.
You have no trade and bring your Credit Union financing.
You want to close the deal at the $39999 + tax, title and dealer fee and you are told. You are not trading anything, therefore the price is now $41999.. You are not financing with us, the price you pay before tax, title and dealer fee is now $42999. The small print also said that there may be dealer add ons: The car hat interior protection and a special paint treatment and that's another $2500, bringing the car that once was $39999 to $45499. That's what I have an issue with.

If the dealer wants the sale at $39,999.00 they'll do it regardless of the items you listed. That's what negotiation covers. So You "can" buy the vehicle for that amount.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Speaking as someone who has sold thousands of vehicles, I agree with MOST of this... however I disagree completely with the part about not discussing financing as a part of the deal. If you don't, I'm 100% going to assume the worst case and negotiate price accordingly.

In that case I'd walk out and go to a different dealer, which I've done before. When the salesperson knows you're serious about buying the vehicle, and that you're more than willing to walk out, they get more willing to negotiate. If they don't I go buy somewhere else.

When we bought the last Explorer in 2017 I had a small yellow sticky note that I gave the salesman when we sat down and his first question was "How much do you need your payment to be?" I handed him the note with one number on it and said that's what we'll pay and that I didn't care how they got there. He got a weird look on his face and said he didn't think they could do that but he'd check with his manager. A few minutes later we signed the agreement, after which we discussed how we'd pay for it.

Too many new car buyers let emotions rule how they negotiate, and they get too wrapped up in what their trade is worth, rather than the difference between the two vehicles, and they're not willing to get up and walk out.

I'm also not worried about a few hundred dollars either way when the vehicle is well north of $60k. Perspective matters.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Your issue is basic reading comprehension.

My point is that most people don't read the small print and THAT IS WHY DEALERS ADVERTISE THAT WAY. They WANT you to not read the disclaimers.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You are not forced to do it but I'm sure that you are aware that sneaky car dealers will sneak things by you because most don't read the contract. For higher value things, I always read it BUT I often sign things for my kids school and there are many pages and I don't have the time to read everything I'm signing.

If you sign a contract, or any document, without reading it that’s on you. It the dealer or school or whoever.

Every real estate deal I do, I advise the seller and/or buyer to consult with their attorney before they sign the contract.
Matter of fact, most contracts have a paragraph stating that if you are not comfortable or have questions it is suggested that you seek legal counsel.

Point: The contract itself is telling you to read and understand the contract or seek help with that.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My point is that most people don't read the small print and THAT IS WHY DEALERS ADVERTISE THAT WAY. They WANT you to not read the disclaimers.

SO WHAT???!!! THERE IS NO NEW LAW THAT WOULD MAKE STUPID OR LAZY PEOPLE SMART.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

So negotiate your best deal or walk away. Welcome to the capitalist market.

The problem is that most people who are not seasoned car buyers (especially young people) are not skilled doing this. It's like a ATP Pro tennis player playing a hobby player in Tennis. Sales people are Pro's in their game and a young, inexperienced buyer is at the hobby player skill level. Not a fair game.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

In that case I'd walk out and go to a different dealer, which I've done before. When the salesperson knows you're serious about buying the vehicle, and that you're more than willing to walk out, they get more willing to negotiate. If they don't I go buy somewhere else.

When we bought the last Explorer in 2017 I had a small yellow sticky note that I gave the salesman when we sat down and his first question was "How much do you need your payment to be?" I handed him the note with one number on it and said that's what we'll pay and that I didn't care how they got there. He got a weird look on his face and said he didn't think they could do that but he'd check with his manager. A few minutes later we signed the agreement, after which we discussed how we'd pay for it.

Too many new car buyers let emotions rule how they negotiate, and they get too wrapped up in what their trade is worth, rather than the difference between the two vehicles, and they're not willing to get up and walk out.

I'm also not worried about a few hundred dollars either way when the vehicle is well north of $60k. Perspective matters.

Most car buyers are buying a monthly payment and the dealers know this. It’s not the dealers fault.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

In that case I'd walk out and go to a different dealer, which I've done before.

You would have absolutely no idea.

It's simply something in my hip pocket. People paying cash sucks. People using Bob's credit union sucks even worse. It's not even about the money. It's about the amount of hassle that it will be to actually get paid. If someone doesn't want to discuss financing, that's perfectly fine. I will negotiate assuming that they are going to do something that is a pain in my ass.

It's a safe assumption that 99% of the people buying a car have absolutely no clue how much shit a dealer has to do AFTER the sale to actually get paid, pay taxes, deal with titles, etc. The harder you're going to make that on me, the less willing I am to give a better deal.

I'm not a robot. If I'm feeling nice, you may get a better deal. If you're respectful and act like a decent human being, I am way more likely to give the best deal possible. If you're a dick, I'm going to get every dollar I can, and not give a shit if you walk out the door.