Machine Polishing

[Munch]

Who does it and what do you use? I was thinking about getting one of the Porter Cable jobs but it's kind of pricey. I don't see why a cheaper orbital with variable speed wouldn't work other than it might not last as long and would be twice the size. I used to detail cars back in high school but all we had back then were the wool pads so I'm interested in trying out the foam pads they have now.

Also what products do you use? I think I would probably go with the Adams stuff (that way if I ran out I could go mooch some off of GB). I already use a bunch of other Adams products and am very satisfied plus they smell awesome.

[Lowcash]

I machine polish the hood a couple times a year. Since GB wetsanded it I get light scratches from the microfiber towels on occasion, Adams machine polish with a PC orbital and a white pad knocks it out quickly.

I was using the 3 stage Griot's Garage Machine Polish prior to having the car repainted. I use that on my rims once a year and also on the DD. Now I only use Adams then the 3M ultra fine polish with the blue 3M pad (per GBs recommendation) to get the real deal shine.

[2ez 2spd]

I just did my car for the first time with a PC I just bought a PC and the Adam's kit to go with it I notice a big difference I got out a lot of scratches I think I will be able to get them all out with more practice.

I seen GB listed on their web sight as a local vendor I didn't know if he keep an inventory to sell or not? (I need some detal spray)

Over on the Adams fourm they have a thread about maybe comeing to Va Beach to do a detal clinic.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by 2ez 2spd

I seen GB listed on their web sight as a local vendor I didn't know if he keep an inventory to sell or not? (I need some detal spray)

He doesn't have a huge inventory but I've bought a few things from him and I've seen other people up there buying stuff. If you order from the Adams website make sure to use the coupon code JUNKMAN for 10% off.

[2ez 2spd]

Originally Posted by Munch

He doesn't have a huge inventory but I've bought a few things from him and I've seen other people up there buying stuff. If you order from the Adams website make sure to use the coupon code JUNKMAN for 10% off.

Cool thanks I will have talk with him and find out what he keeps up their

[Peter Pan]

I really like my PC, have used it on my Vettes and other vehicles, so much eaiser than doing the work by hand, I have had good luck with Menzenra products and my PC

[Garb55]

Traditional Orbital Buffers like the one in the picture above have been around for a long time, at least the 1950's and probably the 1940's, possibly earlier. In all the years I've been teaching classes on machine polishing I ALWAYS include these types of buffers only I don't teach anyone how to use one, but instead teach people why they can't use one to remove swirls out of clear coat finishes.


These types of buffers are relatively inexpensive and easy to find at most department stores like Sears, Target, Walmart or K-Mart, and also most auto parts stores from around a low of $15.00 to a high of $70.00.

Thus one reason so many people have one is because compared to the tools we all on detailing discussion forums talk about and use, these types of buffers are relatively cheap and easy to find. Tools like the Porter Cable 7424XP or a Flex 3401 more specialized tools capable of more dramatic results and are not easily found at the stores listed above.

Also, because the Traditional Orbital Buffer is easily found and relatively inexpensive to purchase, they are often given as gifts by well meaning people to their friends and family members that are into cars.


And here's what this article is all about... for as long as I've been teaching classes the below question about these types of buffers always comes up,


"Mike, I already have an orbital buffer, can I use it to remove swirls?"


And specifically what they mean is that they've seen all the pictures and read all the threads showing people removing swirls and creating show car finishes using tools like the Porter Cable dual action polisher, (and the Meguiar's and Griot's versions), or the Flex 3401 Forced Rotation Dual Action Polisher or any of the popular rotary buffers like the DeWalt, Makita, Flex 603 or now days the Flex Lightweight 3403 and what they mean is can they get the same kinds of spectacular results they see people getting with these machines with the traditional orbital buffer they already own.

And then I get the fun of saying,

"No. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the buffer you have won't work to effectively remove swirls"


That's a typical scenario and conversation that takes place in one of my classes and I'm sure I can get a witness from one of our forum members that has attended one of these classes after this thread is read enough times after I hit the Submit Button.


TOB = Wax Spreader
Reality is, these tools are now called Wax Spreaders because for the most part that's all they're really capable of, that is spreading out a layer of wax to a finish already in good condition. They don't have enough power, speed or versatility to be used to remove swirls out of modern clear coat finishes. Now if your car's finish is already in great condition and all you want to do is spread out a coating of wax then by all means use them as they will work for this purpose.

But if your car has a clear coat finish and has any of the below Below Surface Paint Defects then what you really need is a tool with dramatically better paint correction ability, that is the ability to remove these kinds of defects.

Cobweb Swirls also called Spiderweb Swirls


Rotary Buffer Swirls also called Holograms or Buffer Trails


Water Spots


A little history on the Traditional Orbital Buffer
Back in the days when cars had single stage paints like lacquers and enamels, this would be pretty much most of the cars and truck built before the 1980's, you could use a traditional orbital buffer to remove oxidation because these paints were generally speaking fairly soft. The problem with single stage paints is that if you don't regularly polish and wax them, then the paint will begin to oxidize on the surface, this shows up as the paint turning a chalky, white color. For example, in the below picture the yellow paint on the 1960 Ford Ranchero has oxidized and begun to turn chalky white.

Oxidation on single stage yellow paint


With old style single stage paints you could remove the oxidation by putting some rubbing compound on the face of a traditional orbital buffer and then place the buffer onto the oxidized paint and use this style of buffer to basically chew off the dead, oxidized paint and it worked pretty good! What you would do is use the buffer and the compound to chew off the dead, oxidized paint and uncover a fresh layer of paint and then afterwards you would polish and wax this fresh layer of paint and the results would be a restored finish that could look like this,


Oxidation removed off one half of the hood


After all the oxidation has been removed off the entire vehicle and the paint has
been polished to a high glossed and then protected using a paint sealant.



The paints have changed...
So old school buffers like a traditional orbital buffer worked find on old school paints. Here's the deal though... the paints have changed! Since the early 1980's car manufactures begin switching over to a new type of paint system called Clear Coat Finishes. There were some problems with early clear coat paint systems all th way into the 1990's but today paint manufactures have this new paint technology dialed-in and modern clear coat paints now last a long time and bring the finish quality of cars to a higher level than ever achieved in the past.

Clearcoat paint systems use different types of resins or than traditional single stage paints and these new resins are more resistant to breaking down via oxidation and that's a good thing because modern paints will easily last longer than traditional single stage paints with only a minimum of care such as washing and occasionally waxing or sealing the paint.


Swirls and Scratches instead of Oxidation
While modern clear coat paints don't oxidize very easily they are easily swirled and scratched and the swirls and scratches show up easily to our eyes. The reason for this is because when you scratch a clear layer of paint the scratch isn't clear it's opaque or whitish and because the clear layer is sprayed over a layer of colored or pigmented paint, the darker colored paints act to make the swirls and scratches in the clear layer show up easily to our eyes.

Harder paints
One of the reasons modern clear coat paints are less prone to oxidize and can last longer then their predecessor is because they tend to be harder and more dense in their chemical make-up than single stage lacquer and enamel paints. This benefit comes at a cost and the cost is when you and I go out into our garage to try to remove swirls and scratches by hand it's dramatically more difficult to remove swirls and scratches because of the hardness factor.

Single stage paints get oxidation but because they're softer it's easy to remove the oxidation which is basically dead or deteriorated paint.
Clear coat paints get swirls and scratches but because they tend to be harder than single stage paints it's more difficult to remove defects in the paint.
It's important to note here that the way you remove swirls and scratches out of a clear coat finish is you must abrade the paint in way that will level the upper most surface of the finish with the lowest depths of the swirls and scratches you're trying to remove. In simple words, in order to remove swirls and scratches you must remove a little paint. That never sounds good to say while teaching a class or type when explaining this in a discussion forum but that is the truth.

Horizontal Point of View of Swirls, Scratches & Water Spots


Just to point out, removing oxidation means removing a little paint off the surface too so we're all still doing the same thing when it comes to working on modern clear coat paints it's just the difficulty has increased because the chemical make-up of the paint has changed.



The reasons why Traditional Orbital Buffers are not effective at removing swirls, scratches and water spots out of clear coat finishes.

Too little power
Most of the traditional Orbital buffers available today don't have the same usable power that polishers like Porter Cable DA Polishers, Flex 3401 Polishers and Rotary Buffers offer.


Fixed speed buffers
Most of these tools have a simple On/Off button so you only get one speed out of the tool and usually it's not fast enough to be effective at removing swirls.

Too slow
The fixed speed offered by traditional orbital buffers is too slow for effective removal of below surface. To be effective you want a polisher that offers a variable speed range with faster speeds at the high speed setting.


Tool large of a bonnet or face of buffing pad
The diameter of most of the buffing pads on traditional orbital buffers is too large and this makes the overall size or footprint of the polisher too large. What this means is when you apply some downward pressure to try to work a compound or polish against the paint to try to remove swirls, scratches and water spots, your downward pressure is spread-out over the entire surface of the buffing pad. This is limits and reduces the effectiveness and ability of the these types of buffers to remove paint and thus remove swirls, scratches and water spots.

More here

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by Garb55

... Reality is, these tools are now called Wax Spreaders because for the most part that's all they're really capable of, that is spreading out a layer of wax to a finish already in good condition...

I also tell people that they make great door stops too!

Here's a quick look at what I did with a PC and Adam's products. The PC is cheap as far as orbital polisher cost are concerned and for the money you spend, the results you can achieve can be phenominal. A lot of it is in the technique.

These water spots wouldn't come off with detail spray or washing. They were stubborn and hard.










After a little coaxing...

[Garb55]

Excellent Job Junkman

[2ez 2spd]

Originally Posted by Garb55

Excellent Job Junkman

I need to work with mine more so I can get my technique better but I see what can be done when you get it right

[Junkman2008]

Thanks guys. I tell people all the time that I can get these same exact results with multiple products. It's not so much about what I use as it is about the technique. There are quite a few different products that will take you to Shineville, the only difference is usually how they get you there.

[Dougzilla]

I have used Menzenra and Zaino swirl remover with great results.

[high desert]

Originally Posted by Garb55

Traditional Orbital Buffers like the one in the picture above have been around for a long time, at least the 1950's and probably the 1940's, possibly earlier. In all the years I've been teaching classes on machine polishing I ALWAYS include these types of buffers only I don't teach anyone how to use one, but instead teach people why they can't use one to remove swirls out of clear coat finishes.


These types of buffers are relatively inexpensive and easy to find at most department stores like Sears, Target, Walmart or K-Mart, and also most auto parts stores from around a low of $15.00 to a high of $70.00.

Thus one reason so many people have one is because compared to the tools we all on detailing discussion forums talk about and use, these types of buffers are relatively cheap and easy to find. Tools like the Porter Cable 7424XP or a Flex 3401 more specialized tools capable of more dramatic results and are not easily found at the stores listed above.

Also, because the Traditional Orbital Buffer is easily found and relatively inexpensive to purchase, they are often given as gifts by well meaning people to their friends and family members that are into cars.


And here's what this article is all about... for as long as I've been teaching classes the below question about these types of buffers always comes up,


"Mike, I already have an orbital buffer, can I use it to remove swirls?"


And specifically what they mean is that they've seen all the pictures and read all the threads showing people removing swirls and creating show car finishes using tools like the Porter Cable dual action polisher, (and the Meguiar's and Griot's versions), or the Flex 3401 Forced Rotation Dual Action Polisher or any of the popular rotary buffers like the DeWalt, Makita, Flex 603 or now days the Flex Lightweight 3403 and what they mean is can they get the same kinds of spectacular results they see people getting with these machines with the traditional orbital buffer they already own.

And then I get the fun of saying,

"No. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the buffer you have won't work to effectively remove swirls"


That's a typical scenario and conversation that takes place in one of my classes and I'm sure I can get a witness from one of our forum members that has attended one of these classes after this thread is read enough times after I hit the Submit Button.


TOB = Wax Spreader
Reality is, these tools are now called Wax Spreaders because for the most part that's all they're really capable of, that is spreading out a layer of wax to a finish already in good condition. They don't have enough power, speed or versatility to be used to remove swirls out of modern clear coat finishes. Now if your car's finish is already in great condition and all you want to do is spread out a coating of wax then by all means use them as they will work for this purpose.

But if your car has a clear coat finish and has any of the below Below Surface Paint Defects then what you really need is a tool with dramatically better paint correction ability, that is the ability to remove these kinds of defects.


The paints have changed...
So old school buffers like a traditional orbital buffer worked find on old school paints. Here's the deal though... the paints have changed! Since the early 1980's car manufactures begin switching over to a new type of paint system called Clear Coat Finishes. There were some problems with early clear coat paint systems all th way into the 1990's but today paint manufactures have this new paint technology dialed-in and modern clear coat paints now last a long time and bring the finish quality of cars to a higher level than ever achieved in the past.

Clearcoat paint systems use different types of resins or than traditional single stage paints and these new resins are more resistant to breaking down via oxidation and that's a good thing because modern paints will easily last longer than traditional single stage paints with only a minimum of care such as washing and occasionally waxing or sealing the paint.


Swirls and Scratches instead of Oxidation
While modern clear coat paints don't oxidize very easily they are easily swirled and scratched and the swirls and scratches show up easily to our eyes. The reason for this is because when you scratch a clear layer of paint the scratch isn't clear it's opaque or whitish and because the clear layer is sprayed over a layer of colored or pigmented paint, the darker colored paints act to make the swirls and scratches in the clear layer show up easily to our eyes.

Harder paints
One of the reasons modern clear coat paints are less prone to oxidize and can last longer then their predecessor is because they tend to be harder and more dense in their chemical make-up than single stage lacquer and enamel paints. This benefit comes at a cost and the cost is when you and I go out into our garage to try to remove swirls and scratches by hand it's dramatically more difficult to remove swirls and scratches because of the hardness factor.

Single stage paints get oxidation but because they're softer it's easy to remove the oxidation which is basically dead or deteriorated paint.
Clear coat paints get swirls and scratches but because they tend to be harder than single stage paints it's more difficult to remove defects in the paint.
It's important to note here that the way you remove swirls and scratches out of a clear coat finish is you must abrade the paint in way that will level the upper most surface of the finish with the lowest depths of the swirls and scratches you're trying to remove. In simple words, in order to remove swirls and scratches you must remove a little paint. That never sounds good to say while teaching a class or type when explaining this in a discussion forum but that is the truth.

Horizontal Point of View of Swirls, Scratches & Water Spots


Just to point out, removing oxidation means removing a little paint off the surface too so we're all still doing the same thing when it comes to working on modern clear coat paints it's just the difficulty has increased because the chemical make-up of the paint has changed.



The reasons why Traditional Orbital Buffers are not effective at removing swirls, scratches and water spots out of clear coat finishes.

Too little power
Most of the traditional Orbital buffers available today don't have the same usable power that polishers like Porter Cable DA Polishers, Flex 3401 Polishers and Rotary Buffers offer.


Fixed speed buffers
Most of these tools have a simple On/Off button so you only get one speed out of the tool and usually it's not fast enough to be effective at removing swirls.

Too slow
The fixed speed offered by traditional orbital buffers is too slow for effective removal of below surface. To be effective you want a polisher that offers a variable speed range with faster speeds at the high speed setting.


Tool large of a bonnet or face of buffing pad
The diameter of most of the buffing pads on traditional orbital buffers is too large and this makes the overall size or footprint of the polisher too large. What this means is when you apply some downward pressure to try to work a compound or polish against the paint to try to remove swirls, scratches and water spots, your downward pressure is spread-out over the entire surface of the buffing pad. This is limits and reduces the effectiveness and ability of the these types of buffers to remove paint and thus remove swirls, scratches and water spots.

More here

Thank you. I'm shopping for a finish polisher and your post really helps.

[91corvette]

adams has great products and the porter cable is nice. buy it and have fun polishing your car to a mirror finish.

[Junkman2008]

That's one clean C4!

[91corvette]

thanks junkman