Plaid spanked by 2018 Escalade

[LATB]

Originally Posted by Yadkin

It's shocking about how little people know about the basic infrastructure that allows civilization to exist: water supply, sanitary sewerage, gas and petroleum pipelines, fuel storage, electrical generation and distribution, natural gas extraction, fire-safe homes, tall buildings, stress-strain relationships of steel, bridges, roadways, traffic signals, basic plumbing...

Originally Posted by Yadkin

They don't. Which is my point. The professionals that designed and built all that have done such a great job that the public uses it every day without giving it a second thought.

This is correct.

And if one has an understanding and an eye for it, it can be a curse. Because I see design and engineering and execution mistakes everyday.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by MadInNc

I’ve run business arms for a conglomerate. Brought high tech to the masses over copper, fiber and wireless while running my business groups. If any body who worked for me sandbagged and never finished project, or padded it by weeks I would FIRE W HOSTILITY. I paid bonuses based on early or on time completion. Your company morals are to question and KPIs are not aligned for growth.

Who you work for is STUPID. Instead on finishing program in your projections, they missed taking on another program or customer.

If ya doubt what I say. PM me

I believe you but how do you know if the project's estimation is too high? Most upper management is not technical and they have no fkng idea what is involved. The first 2 levels of management are guys who know what it takes to develop code. The management levels above them are not technical and they have no idea.
I believe that the main reason that they overestimate is that they don't want any of the staff to be laid off. If upper management would look at the actual workload, they may lay off some people. My employer makes many many billions in profit, so, they are not going to suffer financial hardship from it. They have been cheap on bonuses for our line of business anyways as our systems are all scheduled to go away and be replaced.

[MadInNc]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I believe you but how do you know if the project's estimation is too high? Most upper management is not technical and they have no fkng idea what is involved. The first 2 levels of management are guys who know what it takes to develop code. The management levels above them are not technical and they have no idea.
I believe that the main reason that they overestimate is that they don't want any of the staff to be laid off. If upper management would look at the actual workload, they may lay off some people. My employer makes many many billions in profit, so, they are not going to suffer financial hardship from it. They have been cheap on bonuses for our line of business anyways as our systems are all scheduled to go away and be replaced.

I can go on and on how we projected programs and methodology but your employer sounds like a defense contractor

Good luck, it will catch up to them one day as nothing is guaranteed and change is constant

[sublime1996525]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I believe you but how do you know if the project's estimation is too high? Most upper management is not technical and they have no fkng idea what is involved. The first 2 levels of management are guys who know what it takes to develop code. The management levels above them are not technical and they have no idea.
I believe that the main reason that they overestimate is that they don't want any of the staff to be laid off. If upper management would look at the actual workload, they may lay off some people. My employer makes many many billions in profit, so, they are not going to suffer financial hardship from it. They have been cheap on bonuses for our line of business anyways as our systems are all scheduled to go away and be replaced.

Do they bill their customers based on the gross overestimate of time? Do you quote 5 weeks, finish in 2, and still get paid for 5 weeks of work?

[Tikiman]

Originally Posted by Yadkin

It's shocking about how little people know about the basic infrastructure that allows civilization to exist: water supply, sanitary sewerage, gas and petroleum pipelines, fuel storage, electrical generation and distribution, natural gas extraction, fire-safe homes, tall buildings, stress-strain relationships of steel, bridges, roadways, traffic signals, basic plumbing...

I'm still amazed at how many people don't know to stop before the white line at intersections and then sit there and wonder why they aren't getting a green light. ****ing mooks.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by Tikiman

I'm still amazed at how many people don't know to stop before the white line at intersections and then sit there and wonder why they aren't getting a green light. ****ing mooks.

Same people:

1) change lanes in intersection
2) never go left unless left arrow
3) never turn right on red
4) never stop to go right on red
5) cross solid white lines leading up to intersection
6) ignore right-of-way rules and wave others to go who do not have right-of-way
7) take ten seconds to go on green as their face buried in phone

I got lots more,,,

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by sublime1996525

Do they bill their customers based on the gross overestimate of time? Do you quote 5 weeks, finish in 2, and still get paid for 5 weeks of work?

Our "customers" are company internal. Of course, the functionality is used for products marketed to clients but the clients don't pay for projects. They pay for particular services. My system for example is a sweep system that sweeps money from for example the accounts of branches of a customer to their main account either at the end of the day or intraday. The customer pays for that service. They don't pay for "projects". The projects are internally billed and the goal of the projects is to make the product more interesting to customers. Of course, the development work will be a consideration when deciding how much to bill for the service but the actual customer does not pay for the development itself as it is billed within the company. All software I develop is billed internally.
The latest example was a potential conversion process. My employer acquired another financial institution and their system will be converted to ours. They have not decided yet if they will convert to my system OR to the system that is replacing mine. So, I was asked how much time it would take to write a conversion program. The "mapping" was already worked out and we did that in a 1 hour ZOOM call. So, basically, all that is needed is a program that will read the conversion file, move the values of their fields to our fields (some translation of values is necessary, like translating their "2" to a "T" on or side for example) and insert a record for each of the input records into our database. This is a straight forward process with no complex logic. I can write such program in 1 day. The estimate however is 2.5 sprints (5 weeks) for one person to work on it. My estimate to my 2nd level manager was 1 day to write the code and 1 day to test it. So, I said that I can easily do it in 1 sprint (2 weeks). The official estimate was 2.5 sprints that was presented to product.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by MadInNc

If any body who worked for me sandbagged and never finished project, or padded it by weeks I would FIRE W HOSTILITY.

Who you work for is STUPID. Instead on finishing program in your projections, they missed taking on another program or customer.

If ya doubt what I say. PM me

So where and how did you find employees who can forecast a months-long software project with 100% accuracy?

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by MadInNc

I can go on and on how we projected programs and methodology but your employer sounds like a defense contractor

Good luck, it will catch up to them one day as nothing is guaranteed and change is constant

The companies I've worked for throughout my entire career do a lot of work for DOE, DoD and other federal agencies. Most of what we do is firm fixed price, where providing an accurate and competitive price is critical. If we estimated a project would take 2 weeks and we bid 5 weeks, we'd never win any work and the company would cease to exist.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by MadInNc

I can go on and on how we projected programs and methodology but your employer sounds like a defense contractor

Please do. It's one thing to estimate a task that you have done a dozen times before, but usually when we take on a new software project it's to design and implement something new that the team has never done before. Often at the start of the project the team is in a state of second-order ignorance (they don't even know what they don't know). I'd love to hear how you estimate such a project precisely.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

The companies I've worked for throughout my entire career do a lot of work for DOE, DoD and other federal agencies. Most of what we do is firm fixed price, where providing an accurate and competitive price is critical. If we estimated a project would take 2 weeks and we bid 5 weeks, we'd never win any work and the company would cease to exist.

If you underestimate a project, you may end up losing money if you quoted too little. If in order to meet your deadline, you would have to hire consultants or employees to finish the project on time, you may end up losing money.
In our case, there is no bidding going on as everything is billed company internal. Customers only pay for using the product and often have a locked in price. As the system works based on recurring charges, it's just a matter of time until development cost of enhancements are paid for. My employer makes record profits, even through COVID..

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

If you underestimate a project, you may end up losing money if you quoted too little. If in order to meet your deadline, you would have to hire consultants or employees to finish the project on time, you may end up losing money.

Correct, and your point is what, exactly? Being able to estimate the cost to execute a project is a critical and undervalued skill. Having a well-defined Scope of Work with assumptions and bounding conditions to base an estimate on is just as critical. Repeatedly over or underestimating is no way to run a successful business of any kind.

If you continually overestimate in a competitive environment you'll never win any work. If you have no competition you can overestimate all you want if the ultimate customer doesn't care.

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by LATB

This is correct.

And if one has an understanding and an eye for it, it can be a curse. Because I see design and engineering and execution mistakes everyday.

As a lifelong automotive professional, this curse hits me every time I lay eyes on a Tesla. Or an Audi.

[Egnalf]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

If you underestimate a project, you may end up losing money if you quoted too little. If in order to meet your deadline, you would have to hire consultants or employees to finish the project on time, you may end up losing money.
In our case, there is no bidding going on as everything is billed company internal. Customers only pay for using the product and often have a locked in price. As the system works based on recurring charges, it's just a matter of time until development cost of enhancements are paid for. My employer makes record profits, even through COVID..

Ask any contractor about this. We do it every day of the week, and there are always unknowns. you mix knowledge and balls for the best results. I often do design build projects in the 7 figure range based solely on a narrative, with design to follow a parallel path with construction once a purchase order is presented and contract signed. win some, lose some.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Correct, and your point is what, exactly? Being able to estimate the cost to execute a project is a critical and undervalued skill. Having a well-defined Scope of Work with assumptions and bounding conditions to base an estimate on is just as critical. Repeatedly over or underestimating is no way to run a successful business of any kind.

If you continually overestimate in a competitive environment you'll never win any work. If you have no competition you can overestimate all you want if the ultimate customer doesn't care.

For my management, there is more risk in underestimating than overestimating. It makes you look good if you always deliver on time. If you estimate close to the time that it actually takes, you may end up being late if for example a key employee gets sick etc.
Being late makes management look bad, so they always add a buffer to always be on time.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by Egnalf

Ask any contractor about this. We do it every day of the week, and there are always unknowns. you mix knowledge and balls for the best results. I often do design build projects in the 7 figure range based solely on a narrative, with design to follow a parallel path with construction once a purchase order is presented and contract signed. win some, lose some.

Well said. That's a foreign concept to managers who aren't held accountable for costs or schedule, which is way too many.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

For my management, there is more risk in underestimating than overestimating. It makes you look good if you always deliver on time. If you estimate close to the time that it actually takes, you may end up being late if for example a key employee gets sick etc.
Being late makes management look bad, so they always add a buffer to always be on time.

So your management intentionally lies to make themselves look good. Great management team right there. Not!

[Tikiman]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Correct, and your point is what, exactly? Being able to estimate the cost to execute a project is a critical and undervalued skill. Having a well-defined Scope of Work with assumptions and bounding conditions to base an estimate on is just as critical. Repeatedly over or underestimating is no way to run a successful business of any kind.

If you continually overestimate in a competitive environment you'll never win any work. If you have no competition you can overestimate all you want if the ultimate customer doesn't care.

My company would grossly underbid a job or a project in order to win the work. They knew that the customer would immediately start to add things (called gold plating) to the scope, thus rendering the original bid worthless and we would renegotiate for much more money. What was supposed to be a five-year, $100 million project ended up being a 15-year $1.6 billion dollar project. It was predictable and laughable. All you had to do was secure the contract in the first place and then take the customer (government) for everything they had.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Egnalf

Ask any contractor about this. We do it every day of the week, and there are always unknowns. you mix knowledge and balls for the best results. I often do design build projects in the 7 figure range based solely on a narrative, with design to follow a parallel path with construction once a purchase order is presented and contract signed. win some, lose some.

Really depends on what kind of business you are in. I understand that if your customers are actual customers, you can't afford to overestimate too much as it affects cost and it may get too expensive for the customer. That's the beauty of internal billing. The company has not been too nice with our line of business when it comes to assigning bonus money to us. All the employees on the server/JAVA based systems get much higher bonuses and they assign very little bonus $ to legacy systems.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by Tikiman

My company would grossly underbid a job or a project in order to win the work. They knew that the customer would immediately start to add things (called gold plating) to the scope, thus rendering the original bid worthless and we would renegotiate for much more money. What was supposed to be a five-year, $100 million project ended up being a 15-year $1.6 billion dollar project. It was predictable and laughable. All you had to do was secure the contract in the first place and then take the customer (government) for everything they had.

All too common with work for the .gov since they don't hire the brightest people to write RFPs and Scopes of Work, making multiple change orders inevitable. Never heard the term gold plating, we call it Scope Creep.