Dealership Forged My Signature

[Capt Van]

This thread was taken down at the other place but thought people should still know.

A couple months ago I traded my C7 Z06 in for a new to me 2017 Callaway C7 Z06. The Callaway is a whole other story, less than thrilling.

Fast forward to last Friday. I get a call on my private number from the person that apparently bought the Z from the dealer who left a voice mail asking if I was the Capt.Van that traded it and needed to talk to me.
I figured he just wanted to know the history of the car so I returned the call.

He tells me that the state that he lives in kicked back the title because the car was registered in Florida during a natural disaster, hurricane Irma and unless they could get a notarized statement from the owner of record at the time that it was not damaged (it wasn't even there at the time) they were going to mark the title as water damaged.

I told him that it is a dealership issue and they need to contact me.

He told me that he had contacted the dealer and they gave him a notarized statement signed by the owner of the dealership and he sent that off to the state. A couple weeks later the state kicked it back again and said it had to come from the owner of record at the time of Irma. He then contacted the dealer again and they said not a problem we'll get in touch with the owner. Then last week the dealership texted him to let him know that had finally got the paperwork back from me, come and pick it up.

When he got there they handed him the document and as he read it he became suspicious because the signature on it had a different date that the notary and the notary is an employee of the dealer. He took the paper and not wanting to have it kicked back again he tracked me down and told me the story.

I told him that this was the first I'd heard about it and I hadn't signed anything from the dealer since I traded it in. He sent me scanned image of it and sure enough it was not my signature, not only that the car was never titled in my name, I own vehicles in a trust name.

I went ahead and filled out the papers he needed to get it straightened out with the state.

What liability does the dealership have in this? I have not contacted them as of yet, but thinking about calling the stae agency that governs dealers and maybe GM.

Thoughts?

[Ol Timer]

Chances are the only one to face consequences would be the employee who notarized the signature. No one will own up to the forgery, but notarizing a forged signature would likely cause his/her notary license to be revoked.

[86RAG]

Very bizarre. Have you called the dealership and asked them about this? Make sure you tape the conversation with them. It would be VERY interesting to hear what they have to say about it! And why did CF take down your thread? Was it one of they're sponsors? They do like to protect them!

[GRN ENVY]

*** Disclaimer This is not advice or legal steps, this is just what I know from working in various business/ finance office at various car dealerships.


Few things to know. In Florida (If registered in Florida, other states can vary on time) you must have the vehicle registered within 30days of purchase (Law) and it is the dealerships resposibility to do so. If the car is going out of state, buyer has to sign and out of state affidavit (must be notarized, its normal practice for a dealer to have a notary) assuming responsibility for registering and paying taxes fee's, unless reseprocity exists.

When trading in a car, dealers will have the seller sign a secured power of attorney, this document is VIN specific and is used by dealers to sign on behalf of the owner for the title and or supporting documents. The typical case for this is a car will have a lien on it and the physical title will not be present until the car is paid in full and the title is sent to dealer from the financial institution, 2nd case is an electronic title, which is only a electronic record, if the dealer needs a physical title, they have to have owner signature to show change of ownership, which is where the secured POA comes into play again.

I would imagine the dealer would have followed this practice and to provide the necessary supporting documentation. The affidavits are often used in specific instances in addition to a title, and or title application. Being that you titled your car in your trust, you would have needed to provide trust documetation and sign the POA as the representative of the trust for that POA to be an accurate document. I'd assume the dealer was most likly missing key docs such as the POA and the trust to complete that affidavit for the DMV at the other state.

If they truly forged and did not follow the steps above, they can be reported to the state for investigation and possibly fined or even license revoked.

I'd imagine they made a simple "clerical error" and some bad judgement on skipping the steps above, or possibly they may not have know what to do.

* Again I'm not providing advice or legal steps. This is just my knowledge that can pertain to the steps of transferring a title in the state of Florida. Laws often change as well as policy's and procedures. The above in Florida may have changed in recent years. But last I knew it was accurate.

[Capt Van]

Originally Posted by Ol' Timer

Chances are the only one to face consequences would be the employee who notarized the signature. No one will own up to the forgery, but notarizing a forged signature would likely cause his/her notary license to be revoked.

I think you are correct, too bad to take the fall for the boss.

Originally Posted by 86RAG

Very bizarre. Have you called the dealership and asked them about this? Make sure you tape the conversation with them. It would be VERY interesting to hear what they have to say about it! And why did CF take down your thread? Was it one of they're sponsors? They do like to protect them!

I think it was because I mentioned the almighty Callaway

Originally Posted by GRN ENVY

*** Disclaimer This is not advice or legal steps, this is just what I know from working in various business/ finance office at various car dealerships.


Few things to know. In Florida (If registered in Florida, other states can vary on time) you must have the vehicle registered within 30days of purchase (Law) and it is the dealerships resposibility to do so. If the car is going out of state, buyer has to sign and out of state affidavit (must be notarized, its normal practice for a dealer to have a notary) assuming responsibility for registering and paying taxes fee's, unless reseprocity exists.

When trading in a car, dealers will have the seller sign a secured power of attorney, this document is VIN specific and is used by dealers to sign on behalf of the owner for the title and or supporting documents. The typical case for this is a car will have a lien on it and the physical title will not be present until the car is paid in full and the title is sent to dealer from the financial institution, 2nd case is an electronic title, which is only a electronic record, if the dealer needs a physical title, they have to have owner signature to show change of ownership, which is where the secured POA comes into play again.

I would imagine the dealer would have followed this practice and to provide the necessary supporting documentation. The affidavits are often used in specific instances in addition to a title, and or title application. Being that you titled your car in your trust, you would have needed to provide trust documetation and sign the POA as the representative of the trust for that POA to be an accurate document. I'd assume the dealer was most likly missing key docs such as the POA and the trust to complete that affidavit for the DMV at the other state.

If they truly forged and did not follow the steps above, they can be reported to the state for investigation and possibly fined or even license revoked.

I'd imagine they made a simple "clerical error" and some bad judgement on skipping the steps above, or possibly they may not have know what to do.

* Again I'm not providing advice or legal steps. This is just my knowledge that can pertain to the steps of transferring a title in the state of Florida. Laws often change as well as policy's and procedures. The above in Florida may have changed in recent years. But last I knew it was accurate.

Thanks. The car is from Florida but traded to another state. I did provide all the relevant documents for the trust.

The owner of the dealership did call me a short time ago and was very apologetic and sop on, but no resolution.

[RedLS1GTO]

As both a dealer and a notary...

[GRN ENVY]

Originally Posted by Capt Van

Thanks. The car is from Florida but traded to another state. I did provide all the relevant documents for the trust.

The owner of the dealership did call me a short time ago and was very apologetic and sop on, but no resolution.

If traded out of state, I'd bet they didnt know what they needed for the secure POA. But ignorance is not an excuse. What they did is very concerning.

[Stangkiller]

Holy smokes! Not sure what I’d expect but I’d at least expect to walk away being made very “whole” maybe call local media to investigate if they don’t give into your every demand when you call them.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GRN ENVY

If traded out of state, I'd bet they didnt know what they needed for the secure POA. But ignorance is not an excuse. What they did is very concerning.

I don't buy that. There's no dealer on the planet that doesn't know what needs to happen for an out-of-state deal.

Hell, I'd be willing to bet that the software they use does it automatically. Ours does and it's about the most basic software package out there.

[GRN ENVY]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I don't buy that. There's no dealer on the planet that doesn't know what needs to happen for an out-of-state deal.

Hell, I'd be willing to bet that the software they use does it automatically. Ours does and it's about the most basic software package out there.

You'd be surprised. Every state operates differently, and every single one has it's own nuances. It can be difficult to know what every state needs and or requires. I at least researched and and tried to pull every document that may be needed for that state as just in case. Rather have the customer sign a couple extra forms to prevent an inconvenience later on

Those software systems are electronic version of the title application, so it's just open fields to be filled out and conpleted. They are sent with the title package, via physical delivery or scanned images to the DMV. A person at the DMV verifys and does the checks and balances on them and then manually processes the title and registrations . Shocking that a government agency is still operating via archaic paper packages.

[mrvette]

Thing that's amazing to ME is that there is virtually NO WAY any state has the ability to verify any signature on any title at the DMV......

sign the damn thing Mickey Mouse and it goes through.....

and it would seem one glance at the car with a 5 minit inspection would prove the thing was not a flood car, how incompetent and LAZY can the state BE??

People working in .gov positions are just SO shit stoopid it's pathetic.....

[86RAG]

Originally Posted by Capt Van

I think it was because I mentioned the almighty Callaway

That would do it!

[Stevedore]

Originally Posted by mrvette

Thing that's amazing to ME is that there is virtually NO WAY any state has the ability to verify any signature on any title at the DMV......

sign the damn thing Mickey Mouse and it goes through.....

and it would seem one glance at the car with a 5 minit inspection would prove the thing was not a flood car, how incompetent and LAZY can the state BE??

People working in .gov positions are just SO shit stoopid it's pathetic.....

I resemble that remark! I worked in a ".gov" position (whatever TF that means) for many years, and in fact hold a patent on a nuclear weapon component testing system that would have kept your "shit stoopid" ass safe in bed at night in the event that we ever would have had to launch a defensive missile strike.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Stevedore

I resemble that remark! I worked in a ".gov" position (whatever TF that means) for many years, and in fact hold a patent on a nuclear weapon component testing system that would have kept your "shit stoopid" ass safe in bed at night in the event that we ever would have had to launch a defensive missile strike.

Sorry man, sounds like a company/corporation assigned bid project to me.....at any rate, I thinking of the typical no nothing in DC.....just like conngress.....

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GRN ENVY

You'd be surprised. Every state operates differently, and every single one has it's own nuances. It can be difficult to know what every state needs and or requires. I at least researched and and tried to pull every document that may be needed for that state as just in case. Rather have the customer sign a couple extra forms to prevent an inconvenience later on

Those software systems are electronic version of the title application, so it's just open fields to be filled out and conpleted. They are sent with the title package, via physical delivery or scanned images to the DMV. A person at the DMV verifys and does the checks and balances on them and then manually processes the title and registrations . Shocking that a government agency is still operating via archaic paper packages.

I own a dealership. I do title work and transfers nonstop. Yea, each state has it's own nuances but none of them are difficult to figure out. I buy and sell bikes/cars out of state constantly. There's nothing difficult about it.

I don't know what software systems you're talking about but what I'm referring to is a whole lot more than just some open field title application. Whatever it is that creates the Bill of Sale, disclosures, etc more than likely has provisions for out of state deals that will automatically print everything you need to get it done (every one I have looked at does). I guess whether or not a company actually uses it is a different story. If you had to research and pull documents from somewhere on the internet, you need to get a software package that isn't from 1986. Hell, we're as small as it gets and even we have that capability. I find it very hard to believe that a company selling the cars mentioned in the OP doesn't.

[snide]

for review of Callaway.

[GRN ENVY]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I own a dealership. I do title work and transfers nonstop. Yea, each state has it's own nuances but none of them are difficult to figure out. I buy and sell bikes/cars out of state constantly. There's nothing difficult about it.

I don't know what software systems you're talking about but what I'm referring to is a whole lot more than just some open field title application. Whatever it is that creates the Bill of Sale, disclosures, etc more than likely has provisions for out of state deals that will automatically print everything you need to get it done (every one I have looked at does). I guess whether or not a company actually uses it is a different story. If you had to research and pull documents from somewhere on the internet, you need to get a software package that isn't from 1986. Hell, we're as small as it gets and even we have that capability. I find it very hard to believe that a company selling the cars mentioned in the OP doesn't.

I worked for CarMax for 5 years in their Business office, managed it for 3.5. The Business office handled all paperwork, finance contracts, title, BOS, reassignment forms, etc etc. Nothing we did was out of date. Most of the time we actually generated the technology to fast track the title and finance process. On a monthly average processed on around 600 cars a month. I personally after 5 years processed roughly 4000 deals.

The system I'm reffering to is call CVR. Commputerized vehicle registry. It connected us to the DMV directly and allowed us to gernate our own hard plates and ELT title right then and there. DMV would then jsut have to do their final sign off on the check and balances and we would get back the finalized report. Made it easy. Out of state deals required us to pull the particular states title application. We had an online library in the network to fill it out and print out for signature. I took it a step further and made sure to have the those state specific forms in addition to the required forms as a safety net. Every DMV has their state specific Title forms in PDF form online. POA, reassignments, inspection forms, etc etc.

As I mentioned before above, Florida has their Own Secured power of attorney this would have been the supporting documentation needed for the OP and the new owner for process as it allows for signature on behalf of the seller as he is not present after the sale for any kickbacks or new duplicate or new title being printed. In the scenario above I don't think the new owner knew they were going to need a affidavit stating the car was not a total loss during the Hurricane. The dealer probably didn't know either. Being they are a non Florida dealer they probably weren't versed in the SPOA process. By all means its a learning experiance. It took me a good bit to learn title processes for various states.

IF they have new programs that take away the need for a title Admin. That just makes life easier for the dealer and potentially at a lower costs than having a person work on titles for the dealer.

Like I said, I'm only providing my knowledge to the OP of what title processes can look like. Maybe the dealer did know they needed an additional form and choose to try and pull a fast one. Like we both know, each state has their own nuances and they can be convaluted. Maybe my knowledge is outdated, I've been out of the business for 1.5 years now. But only trying to give him some context as to what a headache title are.

[RedLS1GTO]

No matter what software and no matter how it's done I think we can agree that what happened here should never happen.

OP, If I was you, if nothing else, I would go straight to the Secretary of State about the notary and tell them exactly what happened.

[GRN ENVY]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

No matter what software and no matter how it's done I think we can agree that what happened here should never happen.

OP, If I was you, if nothing else, I would go straight to the Secretary of State about the notary and tell them exactly what happened.

And yes, I think the State should definitely be made aware.

[Capt Van]

Originally Posted by snide

for review of Callaway.

I have had hi performance, Z06s, ZR1s, Vipers, ACR a Lambo a 430, cars for years. Some great some not so great, some I would buy again some wouldn't buy again. The car in question falls into the latter.