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Old 06-24-2015, 8:55am   #1
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our world is full of symbols. symbols that mean something to people who see them, and many symbols have different meanings to different people.

the nazi swastika was used by the US army before WW2, and other cultures dating back several hundred years, but took on evil implications due to Hitler.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10007453

if you read thru some of Dan Brown's books, he notes other symbols that have been around for 1000s of years, and used by different cultures over time.

now we are again arguing about old symbols and what they mean to different people. confederate battle flags? many southerners are quite proud of their ancestor's gallant service during the Civil War. others see it as a symbol of oppression - oppression that no longer officially exists.

a symbol only has the power you give it. if you ignore it, don't react to it, those promoting and using it lose their power to intimidate over you. want to wave an old flag? knock yourself out. what a lovely old bed sheet you have there, some might say.

Christian cross? Christians know and embrace it, in all it's forms and iterations, but Muslims and Jews either hate it or don't understand it's meaning.

things don't define who you are and what you believe, your heart and character do. if you don't want to be treated as an ass, a jerk, as unlearned, then educate yourself. work hard, provide for yourself and your family.

end of morning ramblings.


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Old 06-24-2015, 9:04am   #2
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I read this yesterday. I think it's worth the cross post.

https://www.facebook.com/BenjaminWat...18321871628280
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:18am   #3
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I read this yesterday. I think it's worth the cross post.

https://www.facebook.com/BenjaminWat...18321871628280
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It's hard to explain how I feel when I see the rebel flag. The emotional bucket overflows with anger, trepidation, sorrow, a perverted pride and apathy. As hard as I try not to make assumptions about whoever is flying the flag or driving around with it mounted on their truck, my mind can not hold back the painful images of the past generations.... and the current one. The nine racially motivated murders of last week, have written a new chapter in the annals of race violence in this country. And at the center of it all, proudly displayed in images of the killer, the rebel flag.

When I moved to South Carolina in 1996, albeit from the southern state of Virginia, I was somewhat taken aback by the frequency of which I saw the flag. It was on vehicles, displayed on homes, and worn on t-shirts. Like grits and sweet tea, the flag was just part of the culture, an enduring symbol of all things southern. This never changed how I felt about it, but it did teach me to give individuals a certain amount of grace and realize that not everyone who embraced the flag embraced prejudice and supremacy alike.

I can remember visiting a teammate's home for the first time my sophomore year. Frank, a white offensive guard on my high school football team, had quickly become my closest friend, welcoming me, the new guy, when others werenít so quick to do so. As I walked into his room, I froze, staring uncomfortably at the large Rebel flag, hanging above his bed. I remember the lump in my throat as I briefly attempted to convey in the most non-condemning way, what the flag represented to me and many others like me. Because of the lingering heaviness of the moment, I canít recall much after that but I do remember how valued I felt, when I returned to Frankís home some time later and the flag was gone! He didnít have to, but because he cared about our friendship, because he cared about me, he empathetically removed the offensive banner on my behalf and maybe for the first time heard how painful that symbol could be. That day was a turning point in our relationship and today; Frank continues to be one of my best friends.

It should not take the brutal, senseless killings of innocent black Americans in a church by a young white man, to ensure the removal of the confederate battle flag from the State House grounds where it has flown in proud defiance of the civil rights movement since the 1960ís. If the flag wasnít problematic before this heinous crime it should not be problematic now, and to hastily remove it in response to this slaughter, although a sympathetic (and economic) gesture, does not address the heart of the matter. In my estimation it is indeed the HEART, that is the matter. Displaying the confederate flag is not inherently wrong. This is not NECESSARILY an issue on which we can take a moral stance. It is not a simple right or wrong dilemma. I understand that for some, the confederate battle flag does not evoke sentiments of racism or supremacy; it is simply a tribute to their heritage, ancestors, and homeland. For others, including the killer, it means much more and for others it is a hiding place for passive racism and group "identity." It is without a doubt, however, a litmus test, exposing our willingness to deny our liberty, our freedom, to fly the flag of our choice, for the sake of offending our countrymen whose SHARED HERITAGE is conversely stained with death, injustice, rape, terror and inferiority.

If we remove the Confederate flag from the State Capitol for any reason other than a change in the hearts of South Carolinians, we may as well leave it be. This is not the time for political statements and worrying about national perception. But if we, like my friend Frank, finally listen to the cries and concerns of those we say we care about, soften our hearts, and choose to lay our liberties aside to assuage the pain of our brothers, the only suitable option would be a unanimous decision to remove the flag from the public grounds at the Palmetto State Capitol. The past and it's people, as acclaimed or afflicted as they may be, should always be remembered. But it is difficult to completely "move forward" if painful, divisive icons continue to stand unchallenged.

Sometimes, tragedies have a way of jolting us, laying the truth about us individually and collectively, stark naked for all to see. The outpouring for Charleston has been nothing short of extraordinary and inspiring. Sometimes it takes one person, one neighborhood, one city, and one state to show the unifying love of Christ to the world. As a canyon is carved by the flow of a river long dried up, may the passion of this week cut deep, leaving a permanent change in hearts and souls long after the emotion has gone.
save you a click. well said.
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:24am   #4
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Maybe the most well known symbol. And I believe I read that it's the most used on tattoos. (quick quiz = where does the custom of a cross tattoo come from?)
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:26am   #5
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:27am   #6
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want to have an interesting conversation? discuss the Christian cross with a Morman.

yeah, that was an interesting afternoon visit.
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:34am   #7
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Well written...
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:50am   #8
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if the new standard is we should only honor and celebrate those without sin.....we'll have a very small list of place names we can use for streets/cities/mountains/schools....

everyone has problems in their past. you can find fault with anyone. but the ability to take larger offense than others can put you in charge - tyranny.

'i'm offended by what you say/do/think, therefore you have to stop and say/do/think what i tell you is proper.'

not the world i want to live in.
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:59am   #9
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want to have an interesting conversation? discuss the Christian cross with a Morman.

yeah, that was an interesting afternoon visit.
Did you invite them in for coffee, or maybe a beer or two?
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:06am   #10
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(quick quiz = where does the custom of a cross tattoo come from?)
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ancient sailors used to have them in case they were captured and killed. the cross tattoo was an effort to ask for a Christian burial.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:26am   #11
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Speaking of cymbals...


1 Corithians 13:1 -I may speak in the tongues of men, even angels;
but if I lack love, I have become merely
blaring brass or a cymbal clanging.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:27am   #12
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I recall a recent discussion over lawn jockeys and what they symbolize to people. It really sucks that as a kid, I had no thoughts about lawn jockeys anymore than I did a stone lion or a birdbath. It was just an ornament. It was not until someone made me believe it was wrong, that I made any racial connection. All my young years, I simply thought it was a guy that guided horses around and used a lantern if it was dark. When it was in a yard, I thought it was used to guide guests to the home.

The innocence of youth is more valuable than gold.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:58am   #13
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good discussion.

those who wish to exert power over you will use symbols against you. even ones that have no special meaning to you.

tyranny takes many forms.

you rich? they will tell you that your wealth is a symbol of your cheating the poor, and therefore, you should give it to their favorite entity - government - so .gov can pass it around better (minus some modest handling charges of course).

symbols are strong things.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:38am   #14
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This whole issues is now going into a tailspin. I just watched a news story discussing name changes for schools such as "Robert E Lee".

There are people asking that civil war memorials be taken down...only SOUTHERN ones however.

This is what happens when you crack the door. The ripple effect and subsequent flood cannot be held back.

The dam has now been breached.

In addition, it does not resolve, it divides. Now an issue that was semi-silently polarizing or perhaps not even considered, has a line drawn right down the middle.

I bought three flags yesterday not because I needed them, or especially wanted them, but because I was concerned they will be erased from existence and I am being told, slowly but surely, I can't have one.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:39am   #15
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I recall a recent discussion over lawn jockeys and what they symbolize to people. It really sucks that as a kid, I had no thoughts about lawn jockeys anymore than I did a stone lion or a birdbath. It was just an ornament. It was not until someone made me believe it was wrong, that I made any racial connection. All my young years, I simply thought it was a guy that guided horses around and used a lantern if it was dark. When it was in a yard, I thought it was used to guide guests to the home.

The innocence of youth is more valuable than gold.
Age 71 here, and in Md. just outside DC, used to see quite a few of them, wasn't until HScrewal that I bothered to ask about one of them......

been ME having one, I'd painted the face/whatever white.....just for shits and giggles.....in FACT I saw one that had been done to, many years later.....

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Old 06-24-2015, 11:42am   #16
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in the Plaza in downtown Santa Fe, just south of the Palace of the Governors (old state capitol, now a museum, dates to 1610) is a small open area, and in the center is a monument with text on bronze plaques. below an old plaque is a new plaque, explaining that the old text reflected the times it was written, but may not now reflect the views of current society.

you don't need to be like the Taliban and ISIS and tear down whatever offends you today. leave it be, but have a discussion about what our predecessors did and why, and put up your own version of history next to it.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:43am   #17
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My great grandfather escaped from Russia and my great grandmother smuggled out a Russian cross. I believe these crosses were illegal to own when they escaped. It is just a chunk of metal, but it represented something so much more to them. Freedom of expression and the suppression of choice.
I have no idea what the monetary value is, but the value within the family is very high.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:45am   #18
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awesome.

and here, in the land of the free, you don't have to worry about .gov storming your house late at night, without cause, and rooting thru all your stuff looking for 'contraband' that the state doesn't like today.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:49am   #19
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awesome.

and here, in the land of the free, you don't have to worry about .gov storming your house late at night, without cause, and rooting thru all your stuff looking for 'contraband' that the state doesn't like today.
Yes, but unfortunately there are efforts to accomplish the same thing without such immediate action. The result is the same but the subtlety is almost like a magician getting you to watch his left hand while he does something with his right.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:56am   #20
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My great grandfather escaped from Russia and my great grandmother smuggled out a Russian cross. I believe these crosses were illegal to own when they escaped. It is just a chunk of metal, but it represented something so much more to them. Freedom of expression and the suppression of choice.
I have no idea what the monetary value is, but the value within the family is very high.
Interesting, my family history is Russian also.....my Cousin's Grandfather was head of the church of St. Tikon? sp? on Russian Hill Cleveland Ohio....

My folks help found the Russian church on Mass. Ave NW, right next to the Greek Orthodox church and the old Naval Observatory, now home of the Vice Prez for many years now....and many old Russian church crosses were around the houses, churches,......
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