This is what the Assoc. of American Physicians and Surgeons were saying...

[Rikki Z-06]

Originally Posted by aerovette

We are told to wear masks for the protection of others
We are told masks prevent us from spraying droplets when we cough or sneeze
We are told that we should wear a mask because we could be asymptomatic

Asymptomatic people AREN'T coughing and sneezing (since those are SYMPTOMS)
People that ARE coughing and sneezing should be QUARANTINING

So explain to me again, why I need to wear a mask.

My Co worker, and yes we take personal hygiene seriously, dealing with truck drivers that have been God only knows. Said he could see everything just fine.

[Aerovette]

Balazy conclusion:

Two types of N95 half-mask respirators and 2 types
of surgical masks were challenged with aerosolized
MS2 virus. The experiments were carried out following a manikin-based protocol. The results indicate
that N95-certified respirators may not necessarily provide a proper protection against virus, which is considerably smaller than the accepted most penetrating
particle size of 300 nm used in the certification tests.
Thus, the protection against the airborne viral agents
provided by some N95 respirators may fall below
95%, especially at higher inhalation flow rates. The
efficiency of the surgical masks is much lower than
that of the N95 respirators so that the MS2 virions penetrate readily through the surgical masks. The performance tests conducted with surgical masks challenged
with latex spheres of ;300 nm or bacterial particles
may underestimate the penetration of nanosize
virions.

Also this was interesting as well...

Yezli and Otter (2011), in their review of the MID, point out relevant features:

Most respiratory viruses are as infective in humans as in tissue culture having optimal laboratory susceptibility
It is believed that a single virion can be enough to induce illness in the host
The 50-percent probability MID (“TCID50”) has variably been found to be in the range 100−1000 virions
There are typically 10 to 3rd power − 10 to 7th power virions per aerolized influenza droplet with diameter 1 μm − 10 μm
The 50-percent probability MID easily fits into a single (one) aerolized droplet
For further background:
A classic description of dose-response assessment is provided by Haas (1993).
Zwart et al. (2009) provided the first laboratory proof, in a virus-insect system, that the action of a single virion can be sufficient to cause disease.
Baccam et al. (2006) calculated from empirical data that, with influenza A in humans,“we estimate that after a delay of ~6 h, infected cells begin producing influenza virus and continue to do so for ~5 h. The average lifetime of infected cells is ~11 h, and the half-life of free infectious virus is ~3 h. We calculated the [in-body] basic reproductive number, R0, which indicated that a single infected cell could produce ~22 new productive infections.”
Brooke et al. (2013) showed that, contrary to prior modeling assumptions, although not all influenza-A-infected cells in the human body produce infectious progeny (virions), nonetheless, 90 percent of infected cell are significantly impacted, rather than simply surviving unharmed.
All of this to say that: if anything gets through (and it always does, irrespective of the mask), then you are going to be infected. Masks cannot possibly work. It is not surprising, therefore, that no bias-free study has ever found a benefit from wearing a mask or respirator in this application.

Therefore, the studies that show partial stopping power of masks, or that show that masks can capture many large droplets produced by a sneezing or coughing mask-wearer, in light of the above-described features of the problem, are irrelevant. For example, such studies as these: Leung (2020), Davies (2013), Lai (2012), and Sande (2008).

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by aerovette

We are told to wear masks for the protection of others
We are told masks prevent us from spraying droplets when we cough or sneeze
We are told that we should wear a mask because we could be asymptomatic

Asymptomatic people AREN'T coughing and sneezing (since those are SYMPTOMS)
People that ARE coughing and sneezing should be QUARANTINING

So explain to me again, why I need to wear a mask.

Because control.

You know common sense has no place in this discussion.

[Rikki Z-06]

^^^^^
Control, my Dad always told me, how do you (control a large population, answer= keep them scared). 70's global cooling, 90's global warming, C02 emissions, Green New Deal, see a pattern? What is happening right now. We are being used as pawns in a Global chess game, it is the,


The New World Order!!!

[Sea Six]

80s Acid rain

[C3C7NIC]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Because control.

You know common sense has no place in this discussion.

Yea, because the government doesn't already control citizens in 1000 ways.



Not saying it is an "All or nothing". But watching my tax dollars be wasted on ridiculous shit is FAr more bothersome to me than volunteering to sometimes wear a mask.

[C3C7NIC]

Originally Posted by aerovette

Balazy conclusion:

Two types of N95 half-mask respirators and 2 types
of surgical masks were challenged with aerosolized
MS2 virus. The experiments were carried out following a manikin-based protocol. The results indicate
that N95-certified respirators may not necessarily provide a proper protection against virus, which is considerably smaller than the accepted most penetrating
particle size of 300 nm used in the certification tests.
Thus, the protection against the airborne viral agents
provided by some N95 respirators may fall below
95%, especially at higher inhalation flow rates. The
efficiency of the surgical masks is much lower than
that of the N95 respirators so that the MS2 virions penetrate readily through the surgical masks. The performance tests conducted with surgical masks challenged
with latex spheres of ;300 nm or bacterial particles
may underestimate the penetration of nanosize
virions.

Also this was interesting as well...

Yezli and Otter (2011), in their review of the MID, point out relevant features:

Most respiratory viruses are as infective in humans as in tissue culture having optimal laboratory susceptibility
It is believed that a single virion can be enough to induce illness in the host
The 50-percent probability MID (“TCID50”) has variably been found to be in the range 100−1000 virions
There are typically 10 to 3rd power − 10 to 7th power virions per aerolized influenza droplet with diameter 1 μm − 10 μm
The 50-percent probability MID easily fits into a single (one) aerolized droplet
For further background:
A classic description of dose-response assessment is provided by Haas (1993).
Zwart et al. (2009) provided the first laboratory proof, in a virus-insect system, that the action of a single virion can be sufficient to cause disease.
Baccam et al. (2006) calculated from empirical data that, with influenza A in humans,“we estimate that after a delay of ~6 h, infected cells begin producing influenza virus and continue to do so for ~5 h. The average lifetime of infected cells is ~11 h, and the half-life of free infectious virus is ~3 h. We calculated the [in-body] basic reproductive number, R0, which indicated that a single infected cell could produce ~22 new productive infections.”
Brooke et al. (2013) showed that, contrary to prior modeling assumptions, although not all influenza-A-infected cells in the human body produce infectious progeny (virions), nonetheless, 90 percent of infected cell are significantly impacted, rather than simply surviving unharmed.
All of this to say that: if anything gets through (and it always does, irrespective of the mask), then you are going to be infected. Masks cannot possibly work. It is not surprising, therefore, that no bias-free study has ever found a benefit from wearing a mask or respirator in this application.

Therefore, the studies that show partial stopping power of masks, or that show that masks can capture many large droplets produced by a sneezing or coughing mask-wearer, in light of the above-described features of the problem, are irrelevant. For example, such studies as these: Leung (2020), Davies (2013), Lai (2012), and Sande (2008).

Will look at these and get back to ya.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by C3C7NIC

Will look at these and get back to ya.

I appreciate that you don't get pissed off and you don't give up. Good for you.

[Little Red L98.]

We have a +95% moron rate with mask wearing in my locale. Our incident levels are low.

[Rodnok1]

Originally Posted by aerovette

We are told to wear masks for the protection of others
We are told masks prevent us from spraying droplets when we cough or sneeze
We are told that we should wear a mask because we could be asymptomatic

Asymptomatic people AREN'T coughing and sneezing (since those are SYMPTOMS)
People that ARE coughing and sneezing should be QUARANTINING

So explain to me again, why I need to wear a mask.

People are stupid and won't stay away from you thus raising your chances of getting it a lot.
I can ask my dumbass FIL if he thinks a mask would helped him NOT get it and put in hospital for a week...

[C3C7NIC]

Originally Posted by aerovette

I appreciate that you don't get pissed off and you don't give up. Good for you.

I do try to be open minded. Hopefully respectful, although I will throw a turn or two in return in retaliation.


OK, I looked at the 1st study you presented. Balazy. They looked at no masks, N95 as well as surgical masks.

I could not find any conclusions that masks are ineffective. The Conclusions were as follows:

~ Masks should be implemented as soon as possible. There is a large difference in the number of cases when masks are implemented at 100 infectious individuals versus waiting until there are 1000.

~ The model is sensitive to who wears masks. Here we look at the effect if only infected individuals wear masks and if only susceptible and exposed individuals would wear masks. Figure 8 shows that it is important for both infected, as well as susceptible and exposed individuals, to wear
masks.

~ The implementation of neither N95 respirators nor surgical masks lowered the effective reproduction number below one. However, N95 respirators greatly decreased , in some scenarios very close to one. While facemasks will not stop the pandemic (H1N1) 2009, they could greatly reduce its severity and allow for more time to develop effective vaccines and antivirals.

~ There are currently more trials being conducted on the effectiveness of surgical masks and N95 respirators [32], which will allow us to refine the assumptions made in the model. However, it must be noted that in order for masks to be effective they must be: (1) available, (2) affordable, (3) worn properly, (4) replaced or sanitized daily, and (5) N95 respirators should be fit-tested. Only 10% of the population would have to wear masks in order to reduce the percentage of cases by 20%. Facemasks are inexpensive, relatively easy to implement, and would not cause a large economic burden to society. Masks are a powerful tool and can be used by countries with limited supplies of antiviral drugs and vaccines. In addition, economically feasible preventative global mitigations will benefit the world as a whole. We can conclude from our model that N95 respirators if worn properly are an effective intervention strategy in reducing the spread of the pandemic (H1N1) 2009.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by C3C7NIC

Yea, because the government doesn't already control citizens in 1000 ways.



Not saying it is an "All or nothing". But watching my tax dollars be wasted on ridiculous shit is FAr more bothersome to me than volunteering to sometimes wear a mask.

The problem is that it turns into all or nothing very quickly. The proclamation (it's not even a law) here says to wear masks inside "if social distancing can't be maintained." The part in quotes is ignored by the mask Nazis and many businesses. Kathy has asthma and has a doctor's letter saying she can't wear a mask for more than a few minutes. Two businesses we've gone to here denied her entry, including one who said "we don't care, the law says you have to wear masks inside" when she showed them her letter.

Now the mask Nazis have moved to pushing mask wearing everywhere outside your home. What's next, mask police arresting people for not wearing them inside their home - where the majority of exposure occurs?

And that study you quoted parts from and highlighted they red above? That studied surgical masks and N95 masks. No mention of el-cheapo dust masks, cloth bandannas, or the myriad other idiotic things people are wearing over their mouths and noses.

[C3C7NIC]

Originally Posted by aerovette

Yezli and Otter (2011), in their review of the MID, point out relevant features:

Most respiratory viruses are as infective in humans as in tissue culture having optimal laboratory susceptibility
It is believed that a single virion can be enough to induce illness in the host
The 50-percent probability MID (“TCID50”) has variably been found to be in the range 100−1000 virions
There are typically 10 to 3rd power − 10 to 7th power virions per aerolized influenza droplet with diameter 1 μm − 10 μm
The 50-percent probability MID easily fits into a single (one) aerolized droplet
For further background:
A classic description of dose-response assessment is provided by Haas (1993).
Zwart et al. (2009) provided the first laboratory proof, in a virus-insect system, that the action of a single virion can be sufficient to cause disease.
Baccam et al. (2006) calculated from empirical data that, with influenza A in humans,“we estimate that after a delay of ~6 h, infected cells begin producing influenza virus and continue to do so for ~5 h. The average lifetime of infected cells is ~11 h, and the half-life of free infectious virus is ~3 h. We calculated the [in-body] basic reproductive number, R0, which indicated that a single infected cell could produce ~22 new productive infections.”
Brooke et al. (2013) showed that, contrary to prior modeling assumptions, although not all influenza-A-infected cells in the human body produce infectious progeny (virions), nonetheless, 90 percent of infected cell are significantly impacted, rather than simply surviving unharmed.
All of this to say that: if anything gets through (and it always does, irrespective of the mask), then you are going to be infected. Masks cannot possibly work. It is not surprising, therefore, that no bias-free study has ever found a benefit from wearing a mask or respirator in this application.

Therefore, the studies that show partial stopping power of masks, or that show that masks can capture many large droplets produced by a sneezing or coughing mask-wearer, in light of the above-described features of the problem, are irrelevant. For example, such studies as these: Leung (2020), Davies (2013), Lai (2012), and Sande (2008).

No proof in anything above showing masks were worn and did not work in community setting.

The previous study you posted up, was done correctly. They compared non mask wearers, mask wearers and a combination of both at varying (%) wearers to collect statistical numbers. The studies above in no way are a study showing how masks work in the community to diminish (or prove that they do not) transmission rates.


Ouch... this guy is an anti vaxxer too.. Del Matthew Bigtree is an American television and film producer, and CEO of the anti-vaccination group Informed Consent Action Network, who produced the film Vaxxed: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe based on the discredited views of Andrew Wakefield on an alleged connection between vaccines and autism.


Also, this in the video: 8:15 "When heat and humidity hits, the virus just "GOES AWAY, we don't transmit them any more". Ummm, ok.

https://youtu.be/C1ODBTdNiG0

[thecornerman]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Kathy has asthma and has a doctor's letter saying she can't wear a mask for more than a few minutes.

Hour does the mask affect her?

[C3C7NIC]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

The problem is that it turns into all or nothing very quickly. The proclamation (it's not even a law) here says to wear masks inside "if social distancing can't be maintained." The part in quotes is ignored by the mask Nazis and many businesses. Kathy has asthma and has a doctor's letter saying she can't wear a mask for more than a few minutes. Two businesses we've gone to here denied her entry, including one who said "we don't care, the law says you have to wear masks inside" when she showed them her letter.

Now the mask Nazis have moved to pushing mask wearing everywhere outside your home. What's next, mask police arresting people for not wearing them inside their home - where the majority of exposure occurs?

And that study you quoted parts from and highlighted they red above? That studied surgical masks and N95 masks. No mention of el-cheapo dust masks, cloth bandannas, or the myriad other idiotic things people are wearing over their mouths and noses.

I agree with what you stated, highlighted above.


I think wearing masks (not pseudo masks) outside in open area is stupid when you can social distance.

Yet to talk to ANY LEO that plans to force compliance on mask wearing.

Thinking they will come into our homes and enforce mask wearing is also a scare tactic as well, something you seem to be against sir.

I have severe asthma, AND lupus. I wear a surgical mask OR N95 at work for 12 hour shifts. There have been many studies done that a mask does not cause hypoxia (low O2) or hypercapnia (elevated CO2). Most of it is psychological, much like being in an MRI machine and people freak out thinking they cannot breath = anxiety. Uncomfortable as hell, YES, but not dangerous.

Gosh, If anything your wife and I would benefit the MOST from others and ourselves wearing masks as we are high risk.

[Steve_R]

Nic, what's your take on the so-called "Super Spreaders" of this virus? According to a number of studies and experts, a small percent of those with the active virus account for most of the spread.

Here's one article in Scientific American.

One notable quote from the linked article:

In fact, research on actual cases, as well as models of the pandemic, indicate that between 10 and 20 percent of infected people are responsible for 80 percent of the coronavirus’s spread.

If we use the high estimate of 20% and using the numbers here in FL with 270k confirmed cases and a population of 21.5M, that would mean that we're asking/demanding 21.5M people to wear masks because 54,000 people out of 21,500,000 spread most of the disease. Yeah, that makes sense. Or not.

[thecornerman]

If 54k have it, how many will die?

[C3C7NIC]

Originally Posted by thecornerman

Hour does the mask affect her?

Likely hot, muggy, uncomfortable (especially in humid places like Florida). I completely understand, it is very uncomfortable, no questioning that. When I have my full face shield, N95 mask, full gown and gloves, I am VERY uncomfortable!!

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by thecornerman

Hour does the mask affect her?

Can you ask that again in English?


Nic, LEOs aren't enforcing it here, but businesses are denying entry based on their interpretation of a "law," which is their right as a business even though it's not a law and their interpretation of it is wrong. If you Google "people arrested for not wearing a mask" you will find it's happening more than you'd suspect.

[thecornerman]

He didn't say what happened after a few minutes