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Old 12-15-2017, 10:33am   #21
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:46am   #22
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Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Right back at you.
You can't even define Net Neutrality because it has, literally, no legal meaning. You are defending FCC Title II regulation of ISP's and backbone providers. That's what you are defending. Everything else is marketing, and if only you'd step back and look who was pushing this thing perhaps you could see the forest through the trees.

Watch the video at this link, a former FCC chairman debating your same talking points being mouthed by an MSNBC shill.

Then read this, including this gem.

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The results have been bad for consumers. The first negative consumer impact is less infrastructure investment. The top complaint consumers have about the Internet is not and has never been that their ISP is doing things like blocking content; itís that they donít have enough access and competition. Ironically, Title II has made that concern even worse by reducing investment in building and maintaining high-speed networks. In the two years of the Title II era, broadband network investment declined by $3.6 billionóor more than 5%. Notably, this is the first time that such investment has declined outside of a recession in the Internet era.
You've been lied to. "Net Neutrality" is a buzzword, a slogan. It has nothing legal or factual. It didn't magically make ISP's unable to offer tiered service or force them to treat every IP packet identically. It simply put a 1934 law made to regulate a monopoly (Ma Bell) on ISP's because then the government friggin' owned them. They couldn't say boo without filling out a bunch of paperwork, and the .gov could take away their "broadcast license" on a whim. That's it. That's what you are defending using dial-up phone analogies from 1997.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:00am   #23
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Originally Posted by Cybercowboy View Post
You can't even define Net Neutrality because it has, literally, no legal meaning. You are defending FCC Title II regulation of ISP's and backbone providers. That's what you are defending. Everything else is marketing, and if only you'd step back and look who was pushing this thing perhaps you could see the forest through the trees.

Watch the video at this link, a former FCC chairman debating your same talking points being mouthed by an MSNBC shill.

Then read this, including this gem.



You've been lied to. "Net Neutrality" is a buzzword, a slogan. It has nothing legal or factual. It didn't magically make ISP's unable to offer tiered service or force them to treat every IP packet identically. It simply put a 1934 law made to regulate a monopoly (Ma Bell) on ISP's because then the government friggin' owned them. They couldn't say boo without filling out a bunch of paperwork, and the .gov could take away their "broadcast license" on a whim. That's it. That's what you are defending using dial-up phone analogies from 1997.
I'll admit that I am so ignorant on this subject that I haven't a clue as to if it is good or bad for me as a consumer.
Can you tell me if it is good or bad?
What I see through the forest is that now, ISP's are free to bundle "packages", like the shopping package, or the information package, a lot like cable and satellite companies do, and charge you for segments of the internet.
It would seem that it will not be "free" anymore. Ergo bad for the consumer.
Am I off the mark on this view?
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:19am   #24
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Originally Posted by Jeff '79 View Post
I'll admit that I am so ignorant on this subject that I haven't a clue as to if it is good or bad for me as a consumer.
Can you tell me if it is good or bad?
What I see through the forest is that now, ISP's are free to bundle "packages", like the shopping package, or the information package, a lot like cable and satellite companies do, and charge you for segments of the internet.
It would seem that it will not be "free" anymore. Ergo bad for the consumer.
Am I off the mark on this view?
Hmmm, ISP's were free to offer tiered service and bundled packages prior to 2015, from 2015 to 2017, and after yesterday they still can. Hell, my cable company (CableOne) offers at least four internet packages.

100 Mbps/300 GB per month max at $55
150 Mbps/600 GB per month max at $80
200 Mbps/900 GB per month max at $105
1 GB at I don't know data cap or price, I've just heard it exists.

They were offering these plans the last several months at least, during the glorious days of Net Neutrality. They don't prioritize any one website over another, they just provide a pipe. They have terms and services that you can certainly break but your average consumer will never run afoul of those.

There was nothing the FCC Title II regulations did to stop anything I hear Net Neutrality magically stopped from happening because, well, that law was written in 1934. It was meant to put government oversight at every level of Ma Bell's monopoly. It was not meant to break up their monopoly, quite the opposite. It was to ensure it stayed in place. How that law is supposed to guarantee your Netflix is OK is beyond me. You could buy tiered telephone service back then. You could get a private line, a party line, or a business line and later you could get T1 service plans, touchtone or rotary plans, etc. All was fine under Title II.

What it did do when foisted on ISP's is make it very onerous for them to build new infrastructure. They literally had to get the sign-off of something like 17 government agencies including the DoD, the FCC, the FTC, State Department, the governor's office of any state they were building in, and they had to do this every time. Now who does that benefit? Absolutely no-one other than perhaps the largest ISP's who can afford it I guess. It's why for the first time outside a recession the amount of money allocated to building the internet dropped, and not by a tiny amount - by almost $4 billion. In just under three years.

It's no coincidence that the greatest amount of internet censorship occurred over the last three years. Title II didn't stop outfits like Google (YouTube), Twitter, Facebook, or reddit from censoring the shit out of their content. Quite the opposite actually. But now that the FTC is back in charge of being the prime regulator of the ISP's, anti-trust law (Sherman act) and other laws may indeed be turned on the internet giants if they don't stop censoring ideas and entire swaths of political and societal movements.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:28am   #25
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Originally Posted by Cybercowboy View Post

You've been lied to. "Net Neutrality" is a buzzword, a slogan.
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:45pm   #26
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Originally Posted by TxAg View Post

Net neutrality - Wikipedia

"Net neutrality is the principle that Internet service providers must treat all data on the Internet the same, and not discriminate or charge differently by user, content, website, platform, application, type of attached equipment, or method of communication.[4] For instance, under these principles, internet service providers are unable to intentionally block, slow down or charge money for specific websites and online content."
The dictionary meanings of words/phrases can be misleading; sometimes intentional.

Affordable Health Care for America Act - Wikipedia Affordable Health Care for America Act - Wikipedia



That's why no one calls Obama Care the "Affordable Health Care Act"; not only is it intentionally misleading... but most people don't want to be thought of as an idiotic Kool-Aid drinker.
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Old 12-15-2017, 04:00pm   #27
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TxAg, that's what it was sold as. And for all practical purposes that's what ISP's were doing anyway. For crying out loud, Title II didn't have anything to do with what you claim was Net Neutrality is. How could it? A 1934 law written decades before an IP packet was even a thing. No, you have to look beyond the hype, beyond the claims, to see what was really going on. During the reign of NN, the internet was more heavily censored than anything I've ever seen. Why is that? It's because finally the government controlled the ISP's by the short hairs. That's why. And it was all part of a plan to eventually boil the frog. For crying out loud, why do you think Obama gave ICANN to the friggin' UN before he left office?

We're taking away a government overreach. It won't cause you any harm, and running around like it is the end of the world is completely retarded. The FTC has the Sherman Act and other very tough laws they can lay down on uppity ISP's if needed. Also I take it you didn't watch or read the links I gave you. Especially this video.

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Old 12-15-2017, 04:21pm   #28
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One more thing for TxAg to think about and I'm done. I mean, this debate is pretty much moot anyway, it's a done deal now. TxAg seems to be quite upset with the lack of options in ISP and the threat of them screwing with his internet is severe enough to warrant government intervention. Well, Obama tried that. 5G investment dropped $18 billion during that time. Just $18 billion. Why? Because Title II was so onerous, especially across state lines. 5G wireless is the key to getting tons more competition son! We need to make it as easy to build that $300 billion network as possible! Then you can get 1 Gbps wireless from Verizon, AT&T, whatever instead of being locked into a wired provider like Cox, Comcast, or even Google Fiber.

It's the investment and build-out that's primary to ensuring the internet stays free, open, and competitive. That's it! Obama had other plans for it. As did George Soros, Bezos, Google, Zuckerberg, and Twatter.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:14pm   #29
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Dammit Cyber, your out of control President just killed TxAg.....AGAIN!

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Old 12-16-2017, 09:38am   #30
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BTW, if for some reason you actually use Twitter (I sure the hell don't) starting this Monday they are going to monitor your internet activity when you aren't even on Twitter and if you go to places they consider to be "hate speech", which is undefined but I can promise you T_D will be on their list they will ban your Twatter account without warning or explanation.

Keep in mind. These same companies were all for NN. This is how you know that the ultimate plan for NN wasn't warm and fuzzy open internet.
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Old 12-16-2017, 10:27am   #31
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Net Neutrality is a good thing. It truly is. Also, Obama Care is The Affordable Care Act. Plus, you can keep your doctor.
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Old 12-16-2017, 04:54pm   #32
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When your ISP decides to throttle services you currently use because they compete with their own service perhaps you'll change your tone. It's not like it hasn't happened in the years between 2005 and 2015 more than a few times...
Except Title II didn't do squat to stop that from happening unless you can find it in a 1934 law somewhere, and it's way down on my list of give-a-craps when out-and-out censorship is happening all over with the NN supporting biggies, and the totally insane regulatory hammer Title II imposed stifling infrastructure build-out and making ISP's into "broadcasters" who can lose their license if they don't block traffic the .gov wants them to block.

The secret to an open and fast internet isn't massive government oversight. It's allowing maximum innovation and investment with a light regulartory touch. Why people on the left want to give the government more and more control over everything is beyond me and frankly it's killing our country. Want to pay for my ObamaCare?

The reason I even brought up tiered service plans is because I heard all the time from NN supporters that NN was/is going to make that not a thing. Couldn't be further from the truth and nothing is more "goal-post" moving that trying to have a civil factual debate about the internet with a person who thinks massive government oversight is dandy. They'll also tell you why it's great ICANN was handed over to the UN in 2016.
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Old 12-21-2017, 11:05pm   #33
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Old 12-21-2017, 11:20pm   #34
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Title II regulation of ISPs was a good thing. I'm not going to play the moving goalpost game with Cyber since he thinks data tiers have something to do with the subject at hand. Site censorship by sites (not ISPs) also has literally nothing to do with the NN debate.

When your ISP decides to throttle services you currently use because they compete with their own service perhaps you'll change your tone. It's not like it hasn't happened in the years between 2005 and 2015 more than a few times...
This is, quite seriously, the most bullshit filled little snippet of bullshit I've ever read, and that's giving credit to bullshit snips.

My. God. Title II regs made it so onerous to build out infrastructure that it caused a decline, for the first time in the history of the webs, the tubes full of cats if you will, ever. They are gone now. Your silly suppositions about throttling are going by the wayside due to pending, targeted, legislation addressing the tangential components of this subject. You are wrong about this, and other things. That's OK. It's OK to be wrong but it's never OK to be really wrong.
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