Romney Won Independents, Performed Better Among Them Than Any Republican in 25 Years.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Look at the OP of this thread. Romney WON the independent vote. Among those who actually paid attention and vote on issues rather than party lines, among those who chose to make up their own minds, he WON, and by a sizable margin.

And in the end, what did it get him? He was in it to win. Not part of it, ALL of it.

[Loco Vette]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

Actually Obama had lots of good things to talk about. He got healthcare reform passed, allowed gays to serve openly in the military, pulled us out of the recession and got us out of Iraq. Its just that your side didn't like these things.

The verdict is not yet in on either the health care reform or the recession, and the gays int he military thing affects such a small number of people that it is functinally irrelevant.

As far as Iraq, the sum total of his foreign policy is dismal.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Thomas

And in the end, what did it get him? He was in it to win. Not part of it, ALL of it.

What are you even arguing?

He won, by a substantial margin, among voters that chose to be informed and make choices based on issues (the Independents). Your stance was that he lost because the R party was a "damn mess." If that was the case, winning the (I) vote would simply not have happened.


He lost because of an uninformed electorate who voted because they were bombarded nonstop with shit against him and for his opponent... which is EXACTLY what I said would happen long ago. With the favoritism shown to obama and the complete lack of reporting anything negative against him, the R party had ZERO chance, no matter who the candidate was, of winning the casual voter.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

He lost because of an uninformed electorate who voted because they were bombarded nonstop with shit against him and for his opponent.

If that's your assessment, that's your assessment. Fair enough.

But if that's how you see it, then someone had better wise up and figure out how to win within the current system or fold up their tent and go home wouldn't you say? Blaming is for kids, and it's weak.

You wouldn't remember it, you're too young. The Democrats went through this same problem in the 80's when Reagan was stomping the shit out of everyone.

FWIW Red, I respect your opinion. While I don't agree with you 100%, some of your arguments are certainly valid. However, some of them are coming off as "Sour Grapes" to me.

Carry on VBPRC. Back to OT where it's a little more fun.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Thomas

But if that's how you see it, then someone had better wise up and figure out how to win within the current system or fold up their tent and go home wouldn't you say? Blaming is for kids, and it's weak.

I agree that for things to change for the better, somebody had better figure out a way to get someone worth a shit into office.

It isn't placing blame, it is giving a reason. It is a real shame that the media is what it is and this is the case, but it is something that the R party knew damn well was going to happen and they didn't find a way around it. They had a better candidate in pretty much every possible way running against what is by the numbers one of the worst Presidents of all time. Even with that, they let an ignorant, uninformed electorate pick the other guy. That is their fault. I don't say otherwise.

I think BOTH parties need to fold up their tents. As long as you have a straight 2 party system, you will have nothing but the "your side" vs. "my side" bullshit that we have now with neither actually giving a damn about the country as long as their side "wins".

It isn't sour grapes in the least if you are speaking in terms of "my guy" losing. This is America. Differing opinions are what make us great. Sometimes you are on the side in power, sometimes not. What I do have is a genuine disappointment in how completely f*cked up the political system in this country has become and a worry for where we are headed. How are we ever going to survive as a nation when elections are decided by an uninformed electorate who vote based on what celebrities and the media tell them to vote for? I had a slim hope that we were still above that. We aren't.

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Just curious... do you actually believe the stupid shit you say?

If obamacare was such a good thing, why did he never mention it on the campaign trail? Interesting. Seems to me like if it was such a great thing, maybe he would have mentioned it at least once in a debate, maybe in some of his hundreds of campaign speeches, maybe in some of his TV ads. But, he didn't. Why? Because it is a colossal failure of a plan and everybody other than the most ignorant libtard nut slurpers knows it. The number 1 thing you have listed as a "good thing" and he avoided it like the plague during the campaign. Yep. There's a winner.

He mentioned it at just about every stump speech. Hell, he even started calling it "Obamacare" himself.

Pulled us out of a recession? Really? Take a step off of your f*cking island and look at reality. The economy is SHIT. More people are unemployed than when he started. Net worth of the middle class is down. He increased food stamp recipients by 47% in 3 years to 47 MILLION PEOPLE. Poverty levels have increased. Businesses are leaving in droves to go overseas. Manufacturing costs here have skyrocketed. Economic growth is abysmal. The unemployment rate of women and blacks has skyrocketed. The labor force participation rate has fallen off a cliff.

Call it what you want, every economist will agree with me that we are no longer in recession.

Businesses are shipping jobs overseas because republicans passed legislation and tax laws that made that option appealing. Hopefully we can rectify a lot of that with a second Obama term.

Got us out of Iraq? How's that thing in Afghanistan working out? How about his promises for Gitmo? How's Libya? Syria? How's Iran look these days? Yea. He's kicking ass with his foreign policy.

Yes he got us out of Iraq and we are on a time table with Afghanistan. Gitmo is a disappointment but he may now be able to move on that too. I absolutely approve of how he handled Libya and don't blame him for the deaths that come when working in a dangerous territory. Maybe the republicans will stop cutting the State Department's security budget now. As for Syria, neither side is worth fighting for. Let them duke it out.

Now look at Romney. His only experience with foreign countries is shipping jobs to Asia and dodging taxes with in offshore accounts. He spent a week in Europe during the Olympics and pissed of just about every foreign leader he spoke with.

So the thing we're left with gays in the military. 4 years... 2 of them with COMPLETE control of the government and your accomplishment is gays in the military.

You really think this is a good record??

Yes.

[The_Dude]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

He lost because of an uninformed electorate who voted because they were bombarded nonstop with shit against him and for his opponent...

I tend to think this is a cop out. It says that there is nothing wrong with the party platform or message. The MSM is just out to get us.

[lander]

Originally Posted by The_Dude

I tend to think this is a cop out. It says that there is nothing wrong with the party platform or message. The MSM is just out to get us.

I agree. Much better to change our platform and lie to the electorate so that we can get back into office.

Or we could just run as Democrats, since that's already their platform.

GMAFB.

[The_Dude]

Originally Posted by lander

I agree. Much better to change our platform and lie to the electorate so that we can get back into office.

Or we could just run as Democrats, since that's already their platform.

GMAFB.

Or we could not do anything, play the blame game and see what happens.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by The_Dude

I tend to think this is a cop out. It says that there is nothing wrong with the party platform or message. The MSM is just out to get us.

Quoting what I said before:

It is a real shame that the media is what it is and this is the case, but it is something that the R party knew damn well was going to happen and they didn't find a way around it. They had a better candidate in pretty much every possible way running against what is by the numbers one of the worst Presidents of all time. Even with that, they let an ignorant, uninformed electorate pick the other guy. That is their fault. I don't say otherwise.

The blame for losing falls squarely on the R party for not dealing with the obstacles that they knew existed.

Not sure what part of that is a cop out.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

Yes.

Well... I guess I can't argue with that.

If your standards for a sucessful Presidential term are really that low, obama is definitely your guy.