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Old 12-15-2012, 1:08am   #21
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There are 312,000,000 people in the U.S.

Think about that for a second. Three hundred and twelve MILLION people.
What are the chances one of them is f'd up beyond comprehension and will do evil things? I'd say the chances are pretty high. Do you think the chances of a psychopath are 1 in 312,000,000? No, the real numbers are much higher. You can not legislate behavior. You can not legislate mental deficieny. You can not legislate evil.
This whiplash reaction to "ZOMG ban all teh guns for the sweet baby jesus!" is foolhardy and reactionary.
Evil exists in this world and you can't stop it with laws. This is a terrible, gut wrenching, sickening, soul scarring tragedy, but no laws enacted can prevent it. It would have been carried out one way or another. People are angry and feel helpless, so they lash out at what they *think* they can control, which is firearms. The fact is, evil , if determined enough, will find a way, and that scares the shit out of everyone.
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Old 12-15-2012, 8:24am   #22
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If BHO and the rest of the Gun control nuts REALLY cared why are they not doing something about Chicago?

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Old 12-15-2012, 9:04am   #23
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Here is some meaningful action advocated by a member of this forum. The suggestions are reactionary and would do nothing to reduce gun crime, but it illustrates the mindset of people who have no comprehension of the issues involved.

Quote:
Here are what I think are fair and reasonable efforts to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't possess them.

1) Guns should be sold with a title. When you sell the gun, you have to change the title at a police station where a back ground check can be done.

2) Bullets should come with serial numbers, and ammo must be registered when sold.

3) Gun owners should all be required to have a license and have to pass a psychological exam. Like a drivers license, they must be retested every five years.

4) Guns should come with unique rifling patterns that can be documented before the gun is sold.

5) All guns already sold would have to be registered, titled and the owners licensed.

6) All gun related crime regardless if fired come with a minimum 20 year sentence.

7) Some measure to prevent kids from getting hold of their parents guns. For example, charging the parents with manslaughter if their kid shoots someone with their gun.

Would this end all gun crime? No, but I'm sure it would start to make a dent on the tens of thousands of gun related deaths.
Overlay these ideas on this incident and what do you have? 20 dead kids, that's what.
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Old 12-15-2012, 9:20am   #24
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Originally Posted by Broken Wind View Post
Here is some meaningful action advocated by a member of this forum. The suggestions are reactionary and would do nothing to reduce gun crime, but it illustrates the mindset of people who have no comprehension of the issues
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Old 12-15-2012, 9:23am   #25
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How about we end the genocide of Black Americans by other blacks and cut our Murder rate in half.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 1
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Old 12-15-2012, 9:47am   #26
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Vetteman Nailed It in the other thread....
Another bad governmental decision... It took that many years to get to this point, and it won't be an overnight fix...

50 years ago, we had state run psych hospitals. We sent crazy people to them. They were locked up, medicated, and kept away from society. Now days, they visit 3 different shrinks, talk about how mommy didn't hold them enough, diagnose them with some disorder that conveniently fits something that they have a pill for. They prescribe this pill, that may or may not work, may or may not have bad side effects, and send them on their way in hopes they can "lead a normal life". One day, said crazy person, decides correctly or not that either a)they are no longer sick, or b)they don't like the way the pills make them feel, and they just stop taking them. You get what you had here, Columbine, Oregon mall, and the Colorado theater. Whether diagnosed or not, these killers are crazy, and someone, somewhere had an idea about it.

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Old 12-15-2012, 10:10am   #27
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I don't know who wrote that comment and don't care, but here is my first-pass response.

Quote:
Here are what I think are fair and reasonable efforts to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't possess them.

1) Guns should be sold with a title. When you sell the gun, you have to change the title at a police station where a back ground check can be done.
For handguns, this is pretty much what goes on now, except the "title" is handled by FFL's, where an instant background check (in Missouri anyway) is ran and if you want to apply for a CCW license like I just did a few days ago, you indeed have to go to the police (in my case, the country jail), get fingerprinted, fill out some forms, and have a background test ran which takes about 8 weeks.

Quote:
2) Bullets should come with serial numbers, and ammo must be registered when sold.
OK, this just shows massive ignorance. Sure, you could in theory put serial numbers on the bullets. It wouldn't tell you much, other that person X bought that bullet (assuming the S/N could be read at all - ever see what a hollow point slug looks like after hitting, well, anything?) It would be very lucrative to steal ammo from stores and individuals. Non-S/N ammo would become a hot commodity, as would ammo from other countries. Counterfeit S/N ammo would be on the black market like you wouldn't believe. And that doesn't even begin to address the ease with which you can load your own ammo and even case your own slugs from molten lead. If there is a will, there would be a way.

In reality all this would do is make it extremely expensive for law-abiding gun owners. Criminals would not be inconvenienced at all. On the contrary, they would have a new way to make money, kind of like copper thieves do now.

Quote:
3) Gun owners should all be required to have a license and have to pass a psychological exam. Like a drivers license, they must be retested every five years.
Oh, this is rich. How I'd love to see the lawsuits from various minority groups claiming that the test is biased, that they don't take tests well, on and on. If you doubt me, just ask about those firefighters in Boston, NYC, and Chicago. Also, a true psychopath could easily pass a simple psych eval. They'd ace it in fact.

Quote:
4) Guns should come with unique rifling patterns that can be documented before the gun is sold.
Well, they are already pretty unique - that's why each handgun sold comes with two fired rounds in a packet, and the manufacturer keeps at least two others. But there's only so many ways one can put grooves in a barrel, and if you insist that each gun have it's own special one-use bore groover tool, you may as well just say handguns start at about $15,000 for your basic entry-level .22 plinker.

Quote:
5) All guns already sold would have to be registered, titled and the owners licensed.
For handguns, this is essentially what is in place. Really stops those bad guys, huh?

Quote:
6) All gun related crime regardless if fired come with a minimum 20 year sentence.
I hate the "mandatory sentencing" guides. For instance, you hear about "alcohol-related" accidents. That stat includes the case where on car slams into another car, and if someone in the "victim" car had been drinking, it's alcohol-related. It's already a nightmare for a licensed CCW holder to actually pull his weapon and use it when a real threat is present. If he kills the bad guy, chances are almost 100% he will be hauled into civil court by the scumbags relatives. That's after he has to sweat any possible criminal charges, which something as minor as the fact he added a custom part to his gun, or used "hot" ammo, or somebody was accidentally shot by bad guy or the CCW holder, etc etc etc.

If you don't think the laws are already severe enough, you're simply wrong.

Quote:
7) Some measure to prevent kids from getting hold of their parents guns. For example, charging the parents with manslaughter if their kid shoots someone with their gun.
They can be sued like crazy in civil court and if they violated any laws, they can be brought up on criminal charges. There are plenty of laws in place as it is. Would you like to be brought up on criminal charges if your 15-year-old kid took your car while you were in the shower and rammed it into a school bus? After all, you should have locked those keys up. Everybody I know that has kids has their guns locked up. But nothing is 100% foolproof if the kid really wants to get at those guns. He'll find a way.

Quote:
Would this end all gun crime? No, but I'm sure it would start to make a dent on the tens of thousands of gun related deaths.
No, it would do exactly nothing other than disarm law abiding citizens and give criminals even more of an edge. They already use these "gun-free zones" as their personal playground.

The CT shooter had two pistols that he used to shoot up the school. If anybody else had a CCW they could have made a big difference. But there is no way any school is going to let a law-abiding citizen have one there.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:13am   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Wind View Post
Here is some meaningful action advocated by a member of this forum. The suggestions are reactionary and would do nothing to reduce gun crime, but it illustrates the mindset of people who have no comprehension of the issues involved.
Why is everyone so opposed to additional registration or traceability? Nobody is advocating taking away your rights. Is it the slippery slope thing? You're told you SHALL wear a seat belt, a helmet, where's the public outcry for that?

Quote:
Some measure to prevent kids from getting hold of their parents guns. For example, charging the parents with manslaughter if their kid shoots someone with their gun.
How does this infringe on your rights?

Quote:
All guns already sold would have to be registered, titled and the owners licensed.
Like your automobile. How does this infringe on your rights?

Quote:
All gun related crime regardless if fired come with a minimum 20 year sentence.
Stiffer sentences for crimes where a gun was fired. We crucify drunk drivers these days, what the difference?
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:27am   #29
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Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Why is everyone so opposed to additional registration or traceability? Nobody is advocating taking away your rights. Is it the slippery slope thing? You're told you SHALL wear a seat belt, a helmet, where's the public outcry for that?
We already have traceability - for law-abiding citizens. For handguns anyway. Do you want shotguns to have serial numbers on each pellet? How about a different elemental compound used for each pellet? The sheriff has my fingerprints on file now. Your random bad guy? Probably not.


Quote:
How does this infringe on your rights?
You know, there's a lot of speech I find offensive. I'd like to put some strict laws in place to restrict the use of such speech. I'm sure you'll be fine with that, I mean, how does that infringe on your rights? Unless this is Animal Farm and some constitutional rights are more equal than others.

Quote:
Like your automobile. How does this infringe on your rights?
How about we have laws where if your gun is stolen and used in a crime, you're executed? That would really really really help! And it barely infringes at all! If you report a stolen gun, you have your right hand cut off. Barely infringy! What extra laws, in CT, would have stopped that psychopath from stealing his mother's very extremely legal handguns? Believe me, any that would would be very infringilicious on law-abiding citizens. Perhaps you'd like to force private citizens to be subject to random inspections in their homes? Drug tested? Please, do tell.


Quote:
Stiffer sentences for crimes where a gun was fired. We crucify drunk drivers these days, what the difference?
There are already mandatory sentencing guidelines for violent crime that involves the use of a deadly weapon. Really takes a bite out of crime, right? I'm sure you don't believe that capital punishment isn't a deterrent to your average murderer. This is different how?

This would make it so incredibly dangerous for a CCW holder to actually use his weapon when it is needed most. If any T isn't crossed or I dotted, he'd be looking at a hard 20. Yeah...
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:33am   #30
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I'm not looking for a pissing match Cybercowboy and it looks like your cued up for one. I'm just asking a few questions.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:45am   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Why is everyone so opposed to additional registration or traceability? Nobody is advocating taking away your rights. Is it the slippery slope thing? You're told you SHALL wear a seat belt, a helmet, where's the public outcry for that?


How does this infringe on your rights?


Like your automobile. How does this infringe on your rights?


Stiffer sentences for crimes where a gun was fired. We crucify drunk drivers these days, what the difference?
Laws very state to state, and what you have proposed is actually similar to NY and MA existing law. The core problem here is a mentally ill person stole guns and committed a crime. No amount of legislation could have prevented this.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:48am   #32
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Quote:
what you have proposed
Whooooooooooooh! I wasn't the one that proposed these things. I just quoted someone else's proposals.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:50am   #33
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Laws very state to state, and what you have proposed is actually similar to NY and MA existing law. The core problem here is a mentally ill person stole guns and committed a crime. No amount of legislation could have prevented this.
And any potential law or laws that could have open up cans upon cans of worms. How about a law that says anybody who has been treated for a mental illness not only is not allowed to purchase guns, but his family is barred from owning guns. Problem solved, right? Oh, and any friend of his must not have any guns at their homes either. Whew! That really solves it!

Now, let's just see if that leads to any unforeseen whoopsies vis-a-vis the constitution and our freedoms...
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:26am   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Why is everyone so opposed to additional registration or traceability? Nobody is advocating taking away your rights. Is it the slippery slope thing? You're told you SHALL wear a seat belt, a helmet, where's the public outcry for that?


How does this infringe on your rights?


Like your automobile. How does this infringe on your rights?


Stiffer sentences for crimes where a gun was fired. We crucify drunk drivers these days, what the difference?


Come to a state like the People ’s Republic of NY and you will see how good gun control works. They have many laws that ban restrict or otherwise harass HONEST gun people and do shit to bother the criminals. In fact most times the first thing plea bargained away is a illegal possession charge when dealing with criminals.

To legally POSESESS a handgun in NY (that means even in your home, no hard to get paper- no handgun) you have many hoops to jump through and a lot depends on the political leaning of the sheriff or the judge that must sign a legal form for EVERY purchase of a hand gun. Getting that paper could take weeks with your paid for gun still locked up in the gun store!

The well known minority it appears has more illegal guns than legal guns in this state and is constantly shooting each other or anyone that gets in the way over trivial matters. You can go to the ghetto with cash in hand and buy all sorts of illegal weapons and hi cap magazines.
Only the honest people pay any attention to the laws and of course our liberal asshole democratic politicians want more gun control. That translates into more bullshit, headaches, fees to honest people and absolutely no problem to criminals

More people are killed/wounded by black on black shooting in this country in a week than every mass murder in the country over a year. It’s like a airplane crash gets all the headlines, but significantly more people die in auto crashes than airplane disasters. Same with shootings.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:31am   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Why is everyone so opposed to additional registration or traceability? Nobody is advocating taking away your rights. Is it the slippery slope thing? You're told you SHALL wear a seat belt, a helmet, where's the public outcry for that?


How does this infringe on your rights?


Like your automobile. How does this infringe on your rights?


Stiffer sentences for crimes where a gun was fired. We crucify drunk drivers these days, what the difference?
CT guns laws are some of the toughest in the USA now. Requiring approval/License for Rifles, Shotguns and all handguns.

Chicago outlaws almost all firearms yet they have almost 500 murders this year alone.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:34am   #36
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Britain, which has some of the most draconian gun laws in the world, has seen an 85% rise in gun crime during the last 10 years.

So there's that too.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:40am   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Wind View Post
Here is some meaningful action advocated by a member of this forum. The suggestions are reactionary and would do nothing to reduce gun crime, but it illustrates the mindset of people who have no comprehension of the issues involved.



Overlay these ideas on this incident and what do you have? 20 dead kids, that's what.
Ahh, we are familiar with that over in PR&C. I'm willing to bet putting laser etching ont he firing pin is effective crime prevention, too
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:48am   #38
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Come to a state like the People ’s Republic of NY and you will see how good gun control works. They have many laws that ban restrict or otherwise harass HONEST gun people and do shit to bother the criminals. In fact most times the first thing plea bargained away is a illegal possession charge when dealing with criminals.

To legally POSESESS a handgun in NY (that means even in your home, no hard to get paper- no handgun) you have many hoops to jump through and a lot depends on the political leaning of the sheriff or the judge that must sign a legal form for EVERY purchase of a hand gun. Getting that paper could take weeks with your paid for gun still locked up in the gun store!
I've always wondered something. What if somebody like me, who owns many TheHandles and rifles decided to do something stupid and move to NY. Would i have to wait for the sheriff to sign off on them before I brought them to my house or would I have to turn them over while I wait for that paperwork? Reality is, knowing me, I'd just put them in my house and think nothing of it anyway.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:14pm   #39
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You know what Columbine, VT campus, newtown, movie theater in aurora, etc....all had in common? They were "no firearms allowed" places. Perfect opportunity for crazies with firearms to go in and kill the clearly unarmed people inside.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:17pm   #40
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I've always wondered something. What if somebody like me, who owns many TheHandles and rifles decided to do something stupid and move to NY. Would i have to wait for the sheriff to sign off on them before I brought them to my house or would I have to turn them over while I wait for that paperwork? Reality is, knowing me, I'd just put them in my house and think nothing of it anyway.

Legally you cannot poses or bring in a hand gun under any circumstances without a hard to get permit. You would need 6 months residency before you applied for a permit. Depending on what county you would need between 2 to 8 months or so to get the OK if they give it at all!. (This bullshit affects a lot of military that goes to West Point) Again depending on the county/judge even if it says carry it might have a lot of limiting restrictions.

Many legal type rifles and shotguns you could bring in but be aware NY has its own AWB and magazines (handgun also) must be pre ban to be over 10 rounds. Black rifles are covered by the ban so those that have stuff like folding stocks bayonet lugs ETC are also covered by our ban.
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