This 1964 GTO was the 590,072 1964 Pontiac built,

[Lakota]

Celebrating another milestone, this 1964 GTO was the 590,072 1964 Pontiac built, breaking the previous year's record of 590,071 units. Pontiac would end the 1964 model year with 715,261 units sold. Pontiac ceased their racing program back in January, 1963. For 1964 they brought drag racing to the streets of America by offering a fun-to-drive high performance car called the GTO. The 1964 GTO was powerful, affordable, and didn't require constant maintenance. It was a hit with the public and by 1965 other manufacturers were following the GTO's formula. While the 1964 GTO only accounted for 32,450 of the 715,261 1964 Pontiacs sold, it started a new genre called the "muscle car" era. For 1965, GTO sales skyrocketed to 75,352 units accounting for 9.4% of all 1965 Pontiacs sold.

[Dan47]

Should have kept Pontiac and nixed Chevy.

[roadpilot]

The production photo with all the old men exec's . Where's Delorean
he is the one that made GTO happen.

[Vette40th]

Delorean was busy designing um, nothing.
Great milestone. That is a massive amount of vehicles, yet, we cant get one for a decent price anymore. lol

[GTOguy]

Initially, the Pontiac brass was so pissed at DeLorean for sneaking in the GTO as an 'option' (GM had a ban on anything over 330 CID in non full sized cars) that they were skeptical they could sell 5,000 GTO's in '64, and betted against it. Turns out, they couldn't make them fast enough an produced almost 6 times as many. Also, the '63 and '64 326 engine used in the Tempest and LeMans was actually 334 cid, but was called a 326 to comply with the rule. The '65--'68 326's were actually 326 cid.

[AUTOHOLIC]

Most people think that the GTO was the first muscle car but in fact to was Chrysler with the Dodge and Plymouth with the intermediate bodies with a 413 in 1962. They were available a 413 Max Wedge and also a milder version.

Check out this link for the facts.
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/the-...par-max-wedge/

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Dan47

Should have kept Pontiac and nixed Chevy.

The Trans Am/Firebird was always better looking than the Camaro Camero.

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by AUTOHOLIC

Most people think that the GTO was the first muscle car but in fact to was Chrysler with the Dodge and Plymouth with the intermediate bodies with a 413 in 1962. They were available a 413 Max Wedge and also a milder version.

Check out this link for the facts.
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/the-...par-max-wedge/

Wrong-O.
The bodies you are referring to were Dodge and Plymouth's full size line for '62 through '64, and they were initial sales flops because they were so much smaller than the Impalas and Galaxies and Catalinas. But also why they were unbeatable on the strip, running against other full size cars that weighed 600 pounds more.

Far from the first 'muscle car'. That could be possibly the 1911 Marion Bobcat, or the 1912 Mercer Raceabout or 1913 Stutz Bearcat, all small light cars with the biggest possible engine. Or later, the '36 Buick Century, which had Buick's biggest Roadmaster engine in the divisions smallest Super body. Or the '49 Olds Rocket 88---again, the big 98 series Rocket engine in the smallest body. The options for 'first muscle car' are endless. But in the '60's, most feel it's the GTO, as it WAS an actual intermediate, not a shrimpy full size car like the Mopars.

[AUTOHOLIC]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Wrong-O.
The bodies you are referring to were Dodge and Plymouth's full size line for '62 through '64, and they were initial sales flops because they were so much smaller than the Impalas and Galaxies and Catalinas. But also why they were unbeatable on the strip, running against other full size cars that weighed 600 pounds more.

Far from the first 'muscle car'. That could be possibly the 1911 Marion Bobcat, or the 1912 Mercer Raceabout or 1913 Stutz Bearcat, all small light cars with the biggest possible engine. Or later, the '36 Buick Century, which had Buick's biggest Roadmaster engine in the divisions smallest Super body. Or the '49 Olds Rocket 88---again, the big 98 series Rocket engine in the smallest body. The options for 'first muscle car' are endless. But in the '60's, most feel it's the GTO, as it WAS an actual intermediate, not a shrimpy full size car like the Mopars.

I have to disagree.

Below are two links to prove my case. They will show that the full size car for Dodge was the 880 and that the Dart was an intermediate size with a 116” wheelbase while the 880 has a 122” wheelbase.

https://classiccarcatalogue.com/DODGE_1962.html

https://www.conceptcarz.com/s5210/dodge-dart.aspx

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by AUTOHOLIC

I have to disagree.

Below are two links to prove my case. They will show that the full size car for Dodge was the 880 and that the Dart was an intermediate size with a 116” wheelbase while the 880 has a 122” wheelbase.

https://classiccarcatalogue.com/DODGE_1962.html

https://www.conceptcarz.com/s5210/dodge-dart.aspx

Where does the literature call the Polara and Dart mid-size or intermediate cars? It doesn't. Because they were full size cars. Not their biggest, but still full size. Just like the Pontiac Catalina compared to the Bonneville. Both C body cars. Both full size. The Cat and Ventura just had a shorter wheelbase.
The Dodge Polaras and Darts and Plymouth Fury's of '62-'64 were marketed as full sized cars. The weird Exner styling and small dimensions hurt Chrysler at the time every place except the drag strip.

[AUTOHOLIC]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Where does the literature call the Polara and Dart mid-size or intermediate cars? It doesn't. Because they were full size cars. Not their biggest, but still full size. Just like the Pontiac Catalina compared to the Bonneville. Both C body cars. Both full size. The Cat and Ventura just had a shorter wheelbase.
The Dodge Polaras and Darts and Plymouth Fury's of '62-'64 were marketed as full sized cars. The weird Exner styling and small dimensions hurt Chrysler at the time every place except the drag strip.

The MOPAR lines are a little confusing and you need to look at the specs for these cars. As I stated the 1962 Dodge FULL Size car was the 880 with a 122” wheelbase. The Dart was an INTERMEDIATE SIZE car with a 116” wheelbase. The 1964 GTO had a wheelbase of 115” so obviously they were direct competitors.

Regarding Plymouth there was NO FULL SIZE car made as PLYMOUTH/CHRYSLER were combined and the CHRYSLER were the FULL SIZED cars for the two. The Plymouths were INTERMEDIATE SIZED cars. See the below like stating this.
https://over-drive-magazine.com/2023...rs-fact-sheet/

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by AUTOHOLIC

The MOPAR lines are a little confusing and you need to look at the specs for these cars. As I stated the 1962 Dodge FULL Size car was the 880 with a 122” wheelbase. The Dart was an INTERMEDIATE SIZE car with a 116” wheelbase. The 1964 GTO had a wheelbase of 115” so obviously they were direct competitors.

Regarding Plymouth there was NO FULL SIZE car made as PLYMOUTH/CHRYSLER were combined and the CHRYSLER were the FULL SIZED cars for the two. The Plymouths were INTERMEDIATE SIZED cars. See the below like stating this.
https://over-drive-magazine.com/2023...rs-fact-sheet/

Dart, Polara, and Fury for '62-'64 were never referred to as 'mid size' car by the manufacturer, or marketed as such. In fact, the 116" wb Darts, Polara's, and Furies were the biggest cars of those makes in those years.
Having a magazine writer 30 years my junior 60 years later refer to them as 'intermediate' in an article means zip to me.
Personally, I agree with you in that they were, indeed the same size as the GM and Ford intermediates of that period. There is NO arguing that. But the FACT remains, they were not referred to as smaller than full size cars by their divisions, and they competed toe to toe with 'other' full sized cars by Ford and GM that had a huge size and weight handicap.

[AUTOHOLIC]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Dart, Polara, and Fury for '62-'64 were never referred to as 'mid size' car by the manufacturer, or marketed as such. In fact, the 116" wb Darts, Polara's, and Furies were the biggest cars of those makes in those years.
Having a magazine writer 30 years my junior 60 years later refer to them as 'intermediate' in an article means zip to me.
Personally, I agree with you in that they were, indeed the same size as the GM and Ford intermediates of that period. There is NO arguing that. But the FACT remains, they were not referred to as smaller than full size cars by their divisions, and they competed toe to toe with 'other' full sized cars by Ford and GM that had a huge size and weight handicap.

How can you possibly say that the Dart was not an intermediate with a 116” wheelbase when clearly the 880 had a 122” wheelbase and was CLEARLY there largest FULL SIZED car?
The bottom line is the Dart was the same size as the GTO and the Dart was the first muscle car of the 1960s.

[LATB]

Classic car nerd fight.

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by AUTOHOLIC

How can you possibly say that the Dart was not an intermediate with a 116” wheelbase when clearly the 880 had a 122” wheelbase and was CLEARLY there largest FULL SIZED car?
The bottom line is the Dart was the same size as the GTO and the Dart was the first muscle car of the 1960s.

I'm saying that Dodge and Plymouth did NOT call their cars intermediates, like you do and the magazine article does.

They are, IMO, intermediates. But that's not how Dodge and Plymouth marketed them, and that's why they took a hit on these cars in marketing in '62-'64. They were competing directly with Impala and Galaxie and Catalina. All full sized cars in the same price range. Without the weird styling and truncated look.

[ricks327]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

I'm saying that Dodge and Plymouth did NOT call their cars intermediates, like you do and the magazine article does.

They are, IMO, intermediates. But that's not how Dodge and Plymouth marketed them, and that's why they took a hit on these cars in marketing in '62-'64. They were competing directly with Impala and Galaxie and Catalina. All full sized cars in the same price range. Without the weird styling and truncated look.

[AUTOHOLIC]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

I'm saying that Dodge and Plymouth did NOT call their cars intermediates, like you do and the magazine article does.

They are, IMO, intermediates. But that's not how Dodge and Plymouth marketed them, and that's why they took a hit on these cars in marketing in '62-'64. They were competing directly with Impala and Galaxie and Catalina. All full sized cars in the same price range. Without the weird styling and truncated look.

Well, I can tell you the I was selling new Dodges from 1968-1974 and everyone considered these (1962 Dodge Darts) as intermediates and the 880s as full size cars. When you had both to look at how could you possibly think anything else?

[Bill]

Originally Posted by AUTOHOLIC

Well, I can tell you the I was selling new Dodges from 1968-1974 and everyone considered these (1962 Dodge Darts) as intermediates and the 880s as full size cars. When you had both to look at how could you possibly think anything else?

What about the Dusters? My neighbors when I was a little kid had a Gold Duster, which seemed cool at the time, but in retrospect, didn't really stand up as classic lines.

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by AUTOHOLIC

Well, I can tell you the I was selling new Dodges from 1968-1974 and everyone considered these (1962 Dodge Darts) as intermediates and the 880s as full size cars. When you had both to look at how could you possibly think anything else?

How could anybody think Biden is doing a good job running the country? Apparently, almost 40 % DO.

Your '68-74 era was totally different from the '62-'64 era. The Satellites, Coronets, Super Bees, Roadrunners, Chargers, etc. were all by then considered and called 'intermediates'. And they didn't compete with the other makes full size cars, but with their intermediates: Cutlass, Malibu, Tempest, Skylark, Fairlane, etc.

I consider the Fury's and Polaras of the '62-'64 era small full sized cars. They were marketed as full size cars. Not as 'intermediates'. Even if they were the same size as intermediates were a couple of years later. And share the same shorter wheelbase.

Here's an idea: show me factory literature of the period where Chrysler calls their Polaras and Furys 'mid size' cars. I'll wait.
All the ads I'm able to locate crow about them being a full size car, like this ad.

[GTOguy]

Here's a zoom in on the second column. Note the 4th line down. "The best gas mileage of any full-size car."

And that's a checkmate.