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Old 05-04-2010, 2:43pm   #21
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But, you can't pin it on Obama.
I am not sure if anyone on here can say that, but I am sure there are thousands of people who can say it all across the US. Sometimes it not a long time coming but a quick action by one person that makes some business fall and fail more than a long time coming inevitability
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Old 05-04-2010, 3:05pm   #22
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I ask you a question. And try to be as honest as you can. When did your busines start going down, really? I think I know the answer and I'm not saying it's Bush's fault. But, you can't pin it on Obama.
I track my business by the month, quarter and year over year. I started my business in 1998 and until 2009 I grew every year, oh I went through the previous down turn. I saw a slight slow down in the fall of 08 approaching the elections. First quarter last year my sales fell 30% and I laid off my first employee and by the end of summer another 20% and I had to get rid of the remaining employee.

It was great I did this, my profits were higher for 09 on a % basis but not on the top number that counts for me, must of been because I cut out all the fat. Fast forward to the end of the first quarter of this year and from the high of 2008 when I had 25 new customers a month to today when I have averaged 5 new ones a month and only 3 new ones in April. Since the HC bill has been passed I am again doing as many quotes for people as we were doing in 2008, the difference is no buyers for the first versions of Obamacare.

No free coke refills in America, the voters got the ultimate shell game from the libs and now we will pay for the spending with new $$ in taxes.
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Old 05-04-2010, 3:06pm   #23
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I am not sure if anyone on here can say that, but I am sure there are thousands of people who can say it all across the US. Sometimes it not a long time coming but a quick action by one person that makes some business fall and fail more than a long time coming inevitability
I am formerly the Direcor of Sales with the newly formed legal divisiion of a small sofware compnay, and I've been laid off since September. Do I blame Obama? No. But, the thing is I don't blame Bush either. Things are what they are.
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Old 05-04-2010, 3:11pm   #24
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I ask you a question. And try to be as honest as you can. When did your busines start going down, really? I think I know the answer and I'm not saying it's Bush's fault. But, you can't pin it on Obama.
I wouldn't pin the economy crash on Obama, nor the democratic-majority congress that preceded him by 2 years.

The collapse was due to business, real estate, and financial sectors becoming incredibly overvalued. The proverbial bubble. It popped.

People knew it was coming for a long, long time. There was no stopping it, making money by trading money with money that doesn't exist cannot continue forever.

What people CAN complain about though, is how and why the Gov't feels the need to re-write law to prevent such situations from repeating. That's an outright slap in the face of free trade and capitalism, the very things this country NEEDS to thrive on to succeed as a whole.

As NEVERL8T alluded to, what happens when the CURRENT Gov't ceases supporting the current economy? You honestly believe it will continue on an upswing, or will reality set in, and things REALLY get bad?

All indicators point to this last "crash" was not anywhere close to rock-bottom. A temporary upswing is also not a recovery, the worst IS yet to come. The Gov't also has creditors, and one day they too will see what it's like to be denied further credit. You can only write worthless checks for so long, eventually debts need to be repaid.


And perhaps THAT is why people do not agree with the many wrongs our current Gov't is currently doing to us. They are not fixing anything, nor bailing anyone out, they are creating only more debt load on us. That debt will certainly trickle down to private corporation and the personal sector too. Much like the other bubbles, this one has no other destiny than to pop too.



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Old 05-04-2010, 3:17pm   #25
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so, what should have we done......"just let the markets work?"
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Old 05-04-2010, 3:33pm   #26
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so, what should have we done......"just let the markets work?"
Honestly? yes.

Markets correct themselves. This one unfortunately went up for far too long, and far too high, before reality finally set in. Some got rich, some found out what their ass looks like w/o using a mirror. It's not unlike any other gamble.

Since your question implies, do we need nanny to fix it? No, that's the absolute last thing we need. We need to learn from our mistakes and become more responsible in our future endeavors. That's exactly opposite of what our current administration feels. They are now propping those butthurt people up with money that doesn't exist, how in the hell can that be a positive thing??

History has shown us over and over than anytime the Gov't needs to step in and intervene, the outcome is an uber-complicated mess that rarely ever resolves the root issue.

I am, and always will be, a fan of less Gov't, and more personal freedom.


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Old 05-04-2010, 3:33pm   #27
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I ask you a question. And try to be as honest as you can. When did your busines start going down, really? I think I know the answer and I'm not saying it's Bush's fault. But, you can't pin it on Obama.
I in no way blame that on Obama. But I can't blame it on Bush either. Things happen and one man does not make a world economy go in the schitter.
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Old 05-04-2010, 3:42pm   #28
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I am, and always will be, a fan of less Gov't, and more personal freedom.


Bring back legal Moonshine making!!!!
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Old 05-04-2010, 3:53pm   #29
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Honestly? yes.

Markets correct themselves. This one unfortunately went up for far too long, and far too high, before reality finally set in. Some got rich, some found out what their ass looks like w/o using a mirror. It's not unlike any other gamble.

Since your question implies, do we need nanny to fix it? No, that's the absolute last thing we need. We need to learn from our mistakes and become more responsible in our future endeavors. That's exactly opposite of what our current administration feels. They are now propping those butthurt people up with money that doesn't exist, how in the hell can that be a positive thing??

History has shown us over and over than anytime the Gov't needs to step in and intervene, the outcome is an uber-complicated mess that rarely ever resolves the root issue.

I am, and always will be, a fan of less Gov't, and more personal freedom.


the "just let the markets work" ideology & lack of regulation are a big part of what caused our economic implosion.you are right in using the "bubble" analogy, but saying that the very system that brought the house of cards crashing should just be trusted to put it all back together again like some economic Humpty Dumpty would have ruined us. do you really realize how close we came to the Greatest Depression the World has ever known with this type of thinking?? I agree that we aren't out of the woods yet, but we were in an emergency situation that demanded immediate action. I submit that we *are* "learning from our mistakes".....the biggest mistake we made was saying "just let the markets work" for too long.
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Old 05-04-2010, 4:12pm   #30
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do you really realize how close we came to the Greatest Depression the World has ever known with this type of thinking??
Of course I do, we are still headed towards it.


Either let the market work, or convert to pure Socialism...those are the two options on the table, but right now we are stuck in a hybrid of the two, one our current administration can only hope to cling to for 2 more years then be let off the hook.

Kinda like maxing out a credit card then committing suicide. You win, but the debt didn't change.


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Old 05-04-2010, 6:59pm   #31
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this "hybrid" has been working for us for a long time. it needs work & that's what we're doing now by spanking Wall Street's ass for turning our economy [and our 401K's] into a casino totally rigged for the house.
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Old 05-04-2010, 8:46pm   #32
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this "hybrid" has been working for us for a long time. it needs work & that's what we're doing now by spanking Wall Street's ass for turning our economy [and our 401K's] into a casino totally rigged for the house.
There is much more to the state of this country's health than your (or mine) 401k account.

Stocks go up and down all the time, look at history. A retirement account, such as a 401k, is just that - a long term investment, one not to be fussed with in short-term changes.

Part of the stock problem is that everyone with internet access to their stock portfolios think they can read the market better than anyone else, and pull their money out at the slightest hint of a downturn. This action only compounds devaluation trends.

Wall St is not the issue, that is only a reflection of our country's health and financial viability. Some people will earn sh!tloads of money playing it, others will lose their asses. It's no different than taking your vacation money to Vegas to blow. Either you win, or you lose. Your 401k is no exception, other than it's (hopefully) better diversified in multiple mutual funds which stand a better chance of earning over the long term even if some of those fund's individual stock holdings fall. Kinda like playing 50 slot machines at once...your chances of hitting a winner greatly increase.

I was down over $100k in my 401k about a year ago, it is now back and at it's all-time highest. Why? because when those stock prices went so low, my paycheck contribution bought that many more shares that have since gone back up in value.
I do not attribute that to Gov't intervention at all. Even if it is, I don't care right now, I'm over 20 yrs from hitting retirement age. That money isn't real to me, and won't be for a long time, it's just a number on a piece of paper until I retire.


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Old 05-04-2010, 9:21pm   #33
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One bit of clarification.... this recession was caused by the real estate bubble.... what created it? Government meddling in the mortgage industry and liberal ideas like "everyone should have a house" and being too poor to afford one must be racist. Remove Fannie/Freddie as a backstop and remove affirmative action lending policies and this wouldn't have happened.
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Old 05-04-2010, 9:46pm   #34
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You should lay of watching Fox News and start thinking for yourself! Bush was a disaster compared to Obama....or most other presidents for that matter.


Ok Ok wait wait you should stop watching CNN, I love simple arguments.
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Old 05-04-2010, 9:54pm   #35
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This thread has taken a bit of a right turn. I've enjoyed the truly mature posts. That[ IS what a forum should be. That's why I like this forum. It's good to have differing opinions. That's what makes the USA great. My original point is that PR&C has become nothing more than an on-line neocon cult. If your in the inner circle you can curse and say whatever nasty things you want If your not part of the inner circle you have to watch your step because the slightest thing can get you banned. I'm sure Joe Cooool will agree with me. That's not at all what a forum should be.

Luckily people like the inner circle of PR&C represent a very small slice of our population. I have a BA in Gov't and Politics. I certainly don't claim to be smarter ehan anyone. I weigh the facts and sometimes vote Republican and sometimes vote Democrat. I've actually been called a POS on PR&C because I voted for Obama. Was the person banned? Of course not. That is an example of the original point of this thread.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:04pm   #36
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One bit of clarification.... this recession was caused by the real estate bubble....
That's rather tough to say.

The banks going bankrupt probably came first, and caused the housing bubble to crash. When you quit lending money, people quickly quit buying.

The bottom line is when people quit paying the banks, the banks go dry, nothing more effectively happens after that, stagnant.

No matter, it's the the same thing no matter the root cause, the "money" being traded simply does not exist....Obama thinks he can create it, but he cannot.

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Old 05-05-2010, 7:35am   #37
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My understanding of it all is basically as follows:

1. Relax lending requirements (because of lib policies and fannie/freddie backstop + it makes the banks more money!)

2. Creates artificial increase in demand

3. Construction/housing industry booms.... especially around my area (everyone used to be a "contractor" and drove an F-350)

4. People live off of their appreciating homes... this artificially stimulates other industries w/ excess demand

5. Banks create CDOs to repackage and sell groups of mortgages etc.

6. Finally supply outpaces demand... there are way too many homes on the market and way too many people in the construction/housing/mortgage industry....

7. Home prices start to fall.... people panic some... the bubble pops... and those that were living off of home equity are uber-****ed....

8. Ripple effect travels through all other industries that were receiving that home equity spending.

9. Home values fall and the underlying value of those CDO's plummets... now banks are holding lots of "toxic-assets" on their balance sheets... the ones whith the most are hit the hardest by customer/public fear... people pull money and some banks go into a tailspin.

10. In reality most of the CDO's still have value.... because only a small portion of people will actually default on their mortgages.

11. Banking system becomes paralyzed...

12. Bush/Obmamessiah come in and save the day w/ TARP to buy all the craptacular assets that nobody knows how to value because .Gov is the only entity who can afford to buy them and sit on them and let the investment mature.

Anyway... that's how I interpret it all.... if not for the relaxation of lending practices and lib "everyone needs a home" policies the bubble wouldn't have been allowed to form as it did. The real problem was that everything piled onto the bubble... our economy was driven by "fake" wealth.
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Old 05-05-2010, 1:56pm   #38
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I'll take default credit swaps & too big to fail for 300 Alex.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:56pm   #39
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I like pie.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:40am   #40
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I like pie.
Here ya go!






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