Egypt Burns

[ChasC5]

What would the Republican Gods, Beck and Rush think?

[Exotix]

Concerns grow over Egypt's WMD research.
U.S. has been quiet about Cairo's weapons programs, but revolt changes the calculus.


Today

Concerns grow over Egypt's WMD research - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com


With Egypt in revolt and the country’s future uncertain, concern is growing over whether a new government in the Arab world’s most militarily and industrially advanced country could accelerate an arms race in one of the world’s most volatile regions.



At the heart of the concern is intelligence indicating that Egypt has quietly carried out research and development on weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear, chemical, biological and missile technology.

The research and development has continued virtually without pause over the past three decades, according to interviews with U.S. officials and a review of intelligence and other government documents by NBC News.

Specifically, the intelligence indicates that Egypt has carried out experiments in plutonium reprocessing and uranium enrichment, helped jump-start Saddam Hussein’s missile and chemical weapons programs in Iraq, and worked with Kim il-Jung on North Korea’s missile program.



“If we found another country doing what they’ve done, we would have been all over them,” said a former U.S. intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The reason the U.S. didn’t move, officials say, was Egypt’s role as a staunch U.S. ally and stabilizing force in the Middle East and later as a key player in U.S. counterterrorism efforts.

If Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is forced to step down, new leadership in Cairo could mean a radical change in that relationship, analysts say.




Withdraw from nuke treaty?

In fact, at least one nuclear proliferation analyst believes that a shift may already be under way in Egyptian policy and that the U.S. may have to deal with Cairo withdrawing from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which it signed and ratified in 1968.

“They hint that if something isn’t done about Israel’s nuclear weapons program or Iran’s nuclear ambitions, they may be prepared to leave the (treaty),” said David Albright, president of the Institute for Science and International Security and a former inspector with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

The Egyptians have pushed for a U.N. conference next year on weapons of mass destruction, or WMD, in the Middle East, and would like to see constraints placed on Israeli and Iranian arms programs.

But “these requirements are hard to meet,” Albright said.
“(The conference) may not end well, and that could be a catalyst for them to leave the (Non-Proliferation Treaty).”

So far, the international community has not made the conference a priority. Seven months after the agreement to hold the conference, the U.N. has yet to establish a venue, an agenda or a facilitator to organize it.

If Egypt was to withdraw from the treaty, there would be no restraints on its development of nuclear technology, whether for energy or for weapons.

And Cairo already has given indications that it may harbor nuclear ambitions, according to analysts inside and outside the U.S. government.

The International Atomic Energy Agency criticized Egypt in February 2005 for failing to report a variety of nuclear experiments over 20 or more years.

The agency noted the Egypt had used “small amounts” of nuclear material to conduct experiments related to producing plutonium and enriched uranium, both of which can be used to make nuclear weapons.

(The agency was then led by Mohamed ElBaradei, now an opposition figure and potential candidate to become at least an interim leader of a post-Mubarak government.)



Uranium, plutonium experiments

While the plutonium experiments appear to have taken place at least 20 years ago, the uranium experiments were more recent.

According to the IAEA report, Egypt used its two research reactors at Inshas in the Nile Delta between 1990 and 2003 to irradiate “small amounts of natural uranium,” conducting a total of 16 experiments.

According to the IAEA, none of the experiments fully succeeded, but in each case, Egypt failed to report them to the agency as required by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Act.

Egypt eventually acknowledged that it had not fully disclosed the extent of its nuclear facilities, failed to declare the pilot plant used for the plutonium and uranium-separation experiments and did not provide design information for a new facility under construction, also at Inshas.

The IAEA declared the lapses a “matter of concern” but stopped short of accusing Egypt of having a clandestine nuclear weapons program.

In a statement responding to the IAEA, Egypt played down the violations, claiming that “differing interpretations” of its obligations under the treaty had led to the problems.

But Albright said the experiments triggered concerns that Egypt was interested in the nuclear fuel cycle — the full development of fuel that can be used to power reactors or build bombs.

“For 15 years, they have made credible moves to build up their nuclear fuel cycle capability,” he said.

Egypt has admitted that it pursued nuclear weapons in the 1960s as it first learned about Israel’s nuclear program, which by 1966 had produced its first atomic bombs. At that point, at least some of those weapons would have targeted Egyptian cities.



Mubarak on the record

And Mubarak himself has occasionally raised the possibility of a nuclear Egypt.

In an October 1998 interview, Mubarak said that Egypt could, if need be, develop nuclear weapons or buy the technology.

"If the time comes when we need nuclear weapons, then we will not hesitate,” he told London’s al-Hayat newspaper. "… Acquiring material for nuclear weapons has become very easy, and it can be bought."

As always, he then dismissed the idea.

“I say, ‘if we have to,’ because this is the last thing we think about," he told al-Hayat.
"We do not think now of joining the nuclear club.”




The U.S. now believes that Mubarak’s reference to being able to buy nuclear technology was not just an off-hand remark.

The statement appears to coincide with a secret offer by Pakistan’s A.Q. Khan to help Egypt develop nuclear arms, an offer that was rejected by Cairo, say U.S. intelligence officials.

Despite these such hints, some observers do not believe that a new government would risk withdrawing from the non-proliferation treaty and moving to develop nuclear weapons.

James Russell, a nuclear non-proliferation expert at the Naval Post-Graduate School in Monterey, Calif., and a former Pentagon official, thinks re-entering the nuclear race would be politically risky and economically unwise.

He noted that the Egyptian government abandoned its nuclear ambitions after the 1967 war with Israel because of the cost and the lack of scientific expertise.



'We don't know'

The question is, would a follow-on regime want to revisit this?” he said.

“Would it look at the set of calculations and pursue not a peaceful program but consider constructing an illicit program ?

The answer is that we don’t know, but we do have an idea of what the costs of doing that would be … and the prospect that they’d have a pretty damn difficult time trying to hide it.

“I have a hard time seeing the costs (for) mounting such a program.
The calculus argues for not doing this ... even for an Islamic regime,” he added.

But as Russell and others note, the Egyptians “don’t have a clean record” in other areas of arms proliferation.
And if the Egyptians lost part or all of their U.S. military aid, they could be expected to try to make up those losses by developing and exporting more weapons technology.

A revealing example of that occurred when Egypt helped Iraq develop its chemical weapons capability before the Gulf War.

A CIA report in 2005 indicated that the Egyptian arms industry was sophisticated enough to permit Egypt to help Iraq make “technological leaps” in the 1980s, as Arab Iraq was battling Persian Iran.

The 350,000-word report, little noticed until the Associated Press wrote of it in March 2005, stated that in 1981, after the outbreak of war with Iran, the Iraqi government paid Egypt $12 million "in return for assistance with production and storage of chemical weapons agents."

It said the assistance included making modifications to rocket systems to permit the warheads to store and disperse chemical agents and helping Saddam’s scientists develop sarin munitions.

The sarin development is the best indicator of the Egyptian chemical weapons capabilities, say military experts. Sarin is a nerve agent, one of the more advanced military chemicals in the world.

[Exotix]

A lesson from assistance to Iraq

Before the mid-1980s, Iraq was limited to mustard gas and other disfiguring agents.

But not long after the Egyptian scientists arrived, Iraqi sarin production soared — from 5 tons in 1984 to 209 tons in 1987 and 394 tons in 1988, the report says. During that period, sarin was used extensively by Iraq to kill Kurdish dissidents in the north as well as Iranian soldiers in the south.

The Egyptians also were critical to the development of an Iraqi missile program, Begun during the Iran-Iraq War in the mid-1980s.

With financing from Iraq, Egypt set up a secret $750 million missile development project in the foothills of the Andes, just south of Cordoba, Argentina.

Called the Condor-II, it was an advanced, mobile, two-stage, solid-fuel ballistic missile that could carry a half-ton warhead more than 600 miles.

By 1985, it was well along in development and the centerpiece of an international consortium run by Egypt’s Ministry of Defense.

U.S. pressure on Argentina and Egypt stopped the project, say U.S. intelligence officials.
And that is not the only example of Egypt working with a rogue state.



Also in the mid-1980s, Egypt secretly cooperated with North Korea to improve both countries’ missile arsenals.

Egypt's shipped at least two of its Soviet-supplied Scuds to North Korea for reverse-engineering. In return, Pyongyang agreed to help Cairo build Scuds on its own.
North Korea provided technical documents, drawings and extensive access to North Korea's own Scud production program.

The cooperation led to North Korea’s development of its Nodong and Taepo-dong missiles.

The former was later sent to Pakistan in exchange for nuclear technology, and deployment of the latter led the U.S. to install its “Star Wars” anti-missile system in Alaska, U.S. intelligence officials said.

It is this backdrop — and the fact that Egypt still has considerable expertise in missiles and chemical weapons — that has some analysts concerned about the path that a new Egyptian government might take.

If an Islamic-dominated government emerges in the wake of Mubarak’s departure, “then all bets are off” as far as pursuit of WMDs, said Russell, the former Pentagon official.

That also would be true of Egyptian-Israeli relations, he said.



If the military retains power and installs another one of its own as leader, the analysts said, the issue will be to what extent Egypt’s relationship with the U.S. is damaged by the Obama administration’s efforts to exert its influence in the crisis.

The only outcome that would entirely calm concerns about Egypt’s WMD ambitions would be if ElBaradei emerged as a central figure in a successor government, they said.
He is, after all, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate because of his efforts to stop nuclear proliferation.



New sense of nationalism expected

But no matter the outcome, Egypt is likely to become “newly sovereign,” or more nationalistic, in the post-Mubarak era, the analysts said.

Egypt would face great costs — including loss of U.S. aid and the ability to buy U.S. military equipment — if it became too open in its dealings with rogue states, or if it pressed hard on a nuclear agenda, notes Judith Yaphe, a 20-year veteran of the CIA who is now senior research fellow and Middle East project director at the National Defense University.

But that doesn’t necessarily mean that a new government might not decide that perilous times call for high-risk actions.

“Will it change? Who knows?” she said.
“The Egyptian military has important things it has to protect.
It would like to protect its relationship with the United States.
Those close ties are something they value. They value highly the training, the weaponry.

“Still, we shouldn’t be terribly surprised they are playing with things.

Israel is still there, and the Iranians have ambitions.

Call it the ‘Iran Effect,’ if you want.
Everyone else has given up on the Egyptians as great leaders, but the Egyptians haven’t.”

[Exotix]

What do we know about Egypt's arsenal?

Open Channel - What do we know about Egypt's arsenal?


NBC News has obtained more than a dozen documents from the United States, Russia and Israel that shed some light on several Egyptian weapons of mass destruction programs, including its nuclear potential and details of a joint North Korean-Egyptian missile development agreement.


The documents, stretching back two decades, reveal an Egyptian commitment to research and development of WMDs, the acronym for weapons of mass destruction that thrust itself into the common lexicon during the Iraq war. They also reveal that Cairo is interested in nuclear and radiological weapons, though the extent of that interest is far from clear.

The U.S. has long known about but tolerated because of Egypt’s central role in both the Middle East peace talks and counterterrorism. To quote one congressional expert on arms proliferation, "If they were any other Arab state, we would be all over them every day on these issues."

At the same time, U.S., Israeli and Russian officials have expressed concerns that the Egyptian weapons programs — particularly its missile expertise – has the potential to destabilize the relative peace that has reigned in the Middle East for several decades. Despite these concerns, the officials say, Egypt has continued to work on many of these programs.

Egyptians have defended its development of WMDs as a necessary counterbalance to Israel's weapons capabilities, which are daunting even to the first Arab state to sign a peace treaty with the Jewish state. With an estimated 200 nuclear warheads — bigger than Great Britain’s arsenal — and 100 medium-range missiles, Israel is in a world of diminishing nuclear programs, a regional superpower — at least.

Here is a breakdown on the Egyptian programs, drawn from the U.S., Russian and Israeli documents, all of which were either publicly disseminated or declassified under the Freedom of Information Act:


Nuclear proliferation

The most revealing document in the trove is a Jan. 28, 1993, report by the Foreign Intelligence Service, the KGB's successor organization. The report, titled “Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction,” was issued at a time of extraordinary public openness in Russia and has not been updated since.

The report stated that while Egypt had "no special program of military-applied research in the nuclear sphere" at the time, it had made significant advances on nuclear technology.

Among other things, it said Egypt had:

• Built a research reactor at Inshas, north of Cairo, built with help from Argentina.

• Contracted with Russia to supply a MGD-20 cyclotron accelerator, which would be helpful in exploring uranium enrichment technologies.

• Begun construction of a facility at its Inshas research center that “in its design features and engineering protection could in the future be used to obtain weapons-grade plutonium from the uranium irradiated in the research reactors."

In addition, NBC News obtained a U.S. Customs Service account of a debriefing of an Egyptian-American spy, Abdel Kadr Helmy. Helmy, who was jailed in the 1980s for trying to obtain various missile technologies including Pershing-II guidance packages – said in the interviews that Egypt had an active nuclear weapons development program that included sending uranium to Pakistan for enrichment to bomb-grade levels. He also said that an Egyptian Brigadier General, Ahmad Nashet, ran both the civilian nuclear establishment in Cairo as well as the nascent bomb program.

Helmy subsequently disavowed the claim, and Egypt has steadfastly denied interest in nuclear weapons.


Chemical weapons

The Egyptians are also interested in chemical weapons. Specifically, the FIS document notes: "Techniques of the production of nerve-paralyzing and blister-producing toxic agents have been assimilated."

Furthermore, the FIS said, "There is information to the effect that Egypt is displaying interest in purchases overseas of warheads intended for filling with liquid chemical warfare agents. The stockpiles of toxic substances available at this time are insufficient for broad-based operations, but the industrial potential would permit the development of the additional production in a relatively short time."

It may be that the warheads the Russians discussed were ultimately bound for Iraq.



Biological weapons

Similarly, the Egyptians have a biological weapons program, according to statements from the FIS, the CIA and the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency dating back to the 1990s.

"At the start of the 1970s," the FIS report stated, "President Sadat confirmed this, announcing the presence in Egypt of a stockpile of biological agents stored in refrigerating plants. Toxins of varying nature are being studied and techniques for their production and refinement are being developed at the present time in a (unnamed) national research center."

In response to a question during a congressional hearing on WMD proliferation on Feb. 24, 1993, CIA Director R. James Woolsey confirmed that Egypt is counted as a nation with biological weapons capability.

And in three annual reports to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee since 1995, the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency has used the same language to assess the Egyptian program: "The United States believes that Egypt had developed biological agents by 1972.

There is no evidence to indicate that Egypt has eliminated this capability and it remains likely that the Egyptian capability to conduct biological warfare continues to exist."

What is intriguing about these reports is that, unlike a similar report in 1994, they did not include this sentence: "The United States however has not, however, obtained recent information on this program" — the implication being that the U.S. did receive information about the program starting in 1995, though it’s not clear what that information was.



Missiles

The area where Egypt excels is in missile development.

The FIS report noted: "By 1990, Egypt's missile forces were armed with a regiment each of Soviet Scud-B (with a range of 300 kilometers) and Frog 7 (70 km) transporter-erector-launchers and also a certain quantity of Sakr 80 and Sakr 365 Egyptian-Iraqi-North Korean short-range missiles. It is technically possible to fit the Scud and Frog warheads with chemical weapons.”

The report also noted that China had reached an agreement with Egypt to assist in modernizing a manufacturing plant to build “new modifications of the Scud B-class missiles and three domestic types of Egyptian surface-to-surface missiles."

A 1992 Israeli Defense Forces memorandum on Mideast missile programs provided this appraisal of the Egyptian program aimed at acquiring and supporting ground-to-ground missiles, or GGM in weapons-speak:

"During the 1950s, and aided by German Nazi scientists, a concerted effort was made to build factories which would manufacture missiles,” it said. “This effort continued over the years; at present the Egyptian army diverts resources to this endeavor.”

The memo said that the Egyptian program was focused on the Scud, and that North Korea was its main ally. In the early 1980s, it said, North Korea bought tens of Russian-made medium-range Scud-B missiles from the Egyptians and, in exchange, helped the Egyptians set up the infrastructure for missile production and assembly. The Egyptian factories are said to have begin active production in 1993.

An even bigger concern among foreign intelligence services is the medium-range Condor II missile program, a joint project of Egypt, Argentina and Iraq.

In congressional testimony on April 18, 1991, U.S. Customs Service agent Daniel Burns stated that Abdelkader Helmy, the Egyptian-American rocket scientist who had pleaded guilty to helping Egypt obtain equipment and material for the Condor-II missile discussed with him several projects, including an “Egyptian effort to develop a nuclear warhead, including the Cobalt-60 effort and the purchase of uranium from France."

Helmy’s statement is of particular concern as Cobalt-60, a radioactive isotope that could be used in a radiological or "dirty" bomb, which disperses radioactive material on detonation.

As stated above, Helmy later disavowed the statement and returned to Egypt. Egypt has denied any interest in nuclear weapons.






Russian designed SA-2 surface to air missile (SAM) on a standard launcher.

The NATO code name for this missile is "Guideline", but Egypt technicians cheekily reverse engineered the missile and manufactured a version called "Tayir as Sabah" ("morning flight").

Egypt got 400 SA-2s from the Soviets and also built quite a few Tayir as Sabahs which were positioned defensively both against the Israelis and the Libyans on the western border.

Depending on the model, this SAM has a range of 35 to 50 kilometers, a speed of Mach 4 and a kill radius of 65 meters, meaning that anything within 65 meters when it explodes will almost certainly be destroyed.

The nuclear variant can carry a 15 kiloton warhead and doubtless has an even larger kill radius!

[Exotix]

*Breaking*


Mubarak to step down as Egypt's leader, Suleiman to take over, sources tell NBC News

Egypt's doctors, lawyers defy threats of military crackdown to join protests.
Army could be 'compelled to defend the constitution and national security,' official says.


Doctors, lawyers defy Egypt crackdown threat - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

[mrvette]

IsREAL is not going to **** around with those assholes, any of them,....I hope they can take out iran, and egypt should be easy again.....

Saudi already wants IsREAL to take out iran....airspace given....going to be interesting.....hopefully we just END the islamic cult this time around instead of swapping sexual positions with them again.....

[ChasC5]

Yea, like we really need another War.

[Exotix]

[Exotix]

*Breaking*


U.S. officials tell NBC News that they believe vice president is now running Egypt

Mubarak quits Cairo as people march on palace - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com


CAIRO — Hosni Mubarak left Cairo for the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, according to sources and officials, after protesters marched on his main presidential palace and held vast rallies across Egypt.

NBC News reported Mubarak had left from Almaza military airport with his family, citing a high-ranking official and a security source, and the news was later confirmed by a local government official.

However, the significance of the move was unclear as Mubarak regularly travels to the resort town on the southern tip of the Sinai region, where he has a palace.

Mubarak passed most of his powers to Vice President Omar Suleiman Thursday night, rebuffing the demands of hundreds of thousands of demonstrators that he step down immediately.

U.S. officials told NBC News that despite confusion over a speech by Mubarak Thursday — in which he appeared to suggest he was still ultimately in charge — the Obama administration was confident that Suleiman was now running the country.


(Read continues in Link)



Army waiting for Coup ?

[Exotix]

*Breaking*

Crowds cheer on this *Berlin Moment* ... precendent in the Arab World ...

[Exotix]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41528247#41528247

[Exotix]

Let's take look at what the wacko reich-wing is saying ...


Mubarak steps down - Corvette Forum

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Exotix

Let's take look at what the wacko reich-wing is saying ...


Mubarak steps down - Corvette Forum

AND everyone knows your version is that the reich was right....

surely your finest idiot proffs told you so, it MUST be true.....and you simply have NO knowledge of the world or poly ticks......

how in the HELL your generation going to survive this islamic cult war is very problematical......your ignorance of world affairs is just far shy of your political influence.....

pay attention to daddy Rockyfeller and shut up....


drop on a rug 5x a day while you at it, too....

[Exotix]

Originally Posted by mrvette

AND everyone knows your version is that the reich was right....

surely your finest idiot proffs told you so, it MUST be true.....and you simply have NO knowledge of the world or poly ticks......

how in the HELL your generation going to survive this islamic cult war is very problematical......your ignorance of world affairs is just far shy of your political influence.....

pay attention to daddy Rockyfeller and shut up....


drop on a rug 5x a day while you at it, too....

The Third Reich wingers have a real problem with what just happened Egypt ... the Egyptians (all young and educated) not only achieved their Democracy in less than a month ... they want to be like Obama's America ...

What are the reich-wingers gonna do now, now that there's no terrorists, no burning of American & Israeli flags ... and now the spread of democracy through the Middle East ... all without shooting (D)'s in the head ... I suggest reich-wingers listen to their Messiah Beck now and shoot thmeselves in the head ... because democracy is coming to get you ...

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Exotix

Let's take look at what the wacko reich-wing is saying ...


Mubarak steps down - Corvette Forum

...........................

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Exotix

Let's take look at what the wacko reich-wing is saying ...


Mubarak steps down - Corvette Forum

I'll pass. I don't care about the vitriolic spew of ****ing angry,neanderthal idiots.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Exotix

The Third Reich wingers have a real problem with what just happened Egypt ... the Egyptians (all young and educated) not only achieved their Democracy in less than a month ... they want to be like Obama's America ...

What are the reich-wingers gonna do now, now that there's no terrorists, no burning of American & Israeli flags ... and now the spread of democracy through the Middle East ... all without shooting (D)'s in the head ... I suggest reich-wingers listen to their Messiah Beck now and shoot thmeselves in the head ... because democracy is coming to get you ...

SO when the MUBRO takes over, and you think for a microsecond this shit not going NUCLEAR??

they attack ISREAL...and they ARE REAL.....there going to be a nuke response.....

that drags us down the tubes also....but I cheer the happenings....why??

because it finally breaks the backs and hearts of the green weenies, and the Naderites.....FINALLY human effort and invention can be once again rewarded and not held accountable for every imaginary fault some sick mind can conjure up....

witness Gore....just the prime example....

NBC...Gibbs, elections....fat chance, all across the region now...

so the Caliphate is now forming.....

BECK was correct....


and NOBAM is as fault, just like his fellow PROGRESSIVE CARTER was for iran.....

winds of change, freedom/democracy/peaceful/people power/ just wait....


you all SO politically stupid, it's amazing.....

[Exotix]

Originally Posted by mrvette

SO when the MUBRO takes over, and you think for a microsecond this shit not going NUCLEAR??

they attack ISREAL...and they ARE REAL.....there going to be a nuke response.....

that drags us down the tubes also....but I cheer the happenings....why??

because it finally breaks the backs and hearts of the green weenies, and the Naderites.....FINALLY human effort and invention can be once again rewarded and not held accountable for every imaginary fault some sick mind can conjure up....

witness Gore....just the prime example....

NBC...Gibbs, elections....fat chance, all across the region now...

so the Caliphate is now forming.....

BECK was correct....


and NOBAM is as fault, just like his fellow PROGRESSIVE CARTER was for iran.....

winds of change, freedom/democracy/peaceful/people power/ just wait....


you all SO politically stupid, it's amazing.....

Doesn't matter ... the Egytians had not even one 17 cent Wal Mart bullet like the one that went through Gaby Giffords head to accomplish history ... all you can do now is blow WMD smoke up your own ass since Bush because Beckerhead is now calling for conservatives to do a Jonestown on themselves ...

[Z06PDQ]

Quadahfi & the rest of the evil sons of bitches that have held their foot on the people's necks over there are shitting their pants right now. the people have spoken & it was heard round the world. the shameless bastard Beck just had a monkey wrench tossed into his fear machine & he's falling on his stupid ass in front of all America while all but the most idiotic of his stupid little lizards who still wait for his next puking of shit like it was manna from Heaven are abandoning ship.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

Quadahfi & the rest of the evil sons of bitches that have held their foot on the people's necks over there are shitting their pants right now. the people have spoken & it was heard round the world. the shameless bastard Beck just had a monkey wrench tossed into his fear machine & he's falling on his stupid ass in front of all America while all but the most idiotic of his stupid little lizards still wait for his next puking of shit like it was manna from Heaven are abandoning ship.

The BECKster is calling it for what he thinks it IS, from history....

we shall SEE, won't we???


I bet my money on Beck, you all are nutz of the finest order the PRGRESSIVE commie bastards could 'edjemakte...'.....

when you both figger out WTF is going on in the world, lemme know....

I seriously, really, honestly can't believe you have a IQ higher than 80 to post the total bullshit you do here.....OR 'there'.....

you guys are funny, but in a sad tragic/comic sense, not in hahaha...not seriously anyway....

Hosem Mobarrick was not a decent guy, don't get me rong, but in a land of cave men....better than most....certainly above that iran mubro crap coming along....BET ME?? get out your bux, shit or off the pot....