[MERGED] Post-Sandy-Hook Gun-Chat Thread [MERGED]

[Cybercowboy]

[Doug28450]

Here is some more math.


DECEMBER 17, 2012 5:00 P.M.
Banning ‘Assault Weapons’ Is Not the Answer
By The Editors

In the wake of the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary, numerous Democrats have called for legislation banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Unfortunately, such bans are empty gestures, certain to offend many law-abiding citizens but highly unlikely to reduce gun violence.

Simply put, so-called “assault weapons” are nowhere near the root of the American violence problem. According to FBI data, of the two-thirds of murders that involve firearms, about 69 percent involve handguns rather than rifles or shotguns of any kind. Most estimates place the contribution of assault weapons to gun crime at around 1 or 2 percent. These numbers should not be surprising: Rifles are difficult to conceal, and a criminal who decides to use a rifle has little reason to prefer an assault weapon over any other semiautomatic option. Contrary to popular myth, assault weapons fire only once for each pull of the trigger; they are not machine guns.

The features that define assault weapons — such as a folding stock or a pistol grip — may look militaristic, but they provide little advantage to someone intent on killing innocent civilians. Adam Lanza used a variant of the AR-15, but he could have achieved the same result with any number of guns commonly employed in hunting and self-defense. As yet there are no reports that Lanza’s Bushmaster .223 was outfitted in such a way as to fall under Connecticut’s assault-weapons ban (or under the national ban that expired in 2004), and .223 ammo is not unusually powerful; to the contrary, most deer hunters use larger calibers, and many of them are required to do so by state laws.
Further, statistical research has failed to turn up evidence that the federal ban that expired in 2004 did any good. Columbine occurred while the ban was in effect.

A limit on magazine capacity (which was also part of the federal ban) is by far the more plausible of the proposed measures, seeing that Gabrielle Giffords’s shooter was tackled while reloading his gun. However, other shooters (such as those at Columbine and Virginia Tech) have had no problem reloading, and still others (such as those at the Aurora movie theater and possibly the Oregon mall) have experienced jams while using high-capacity magazines. The net effect of such legislation would almost certainly be statistically indistinguishable from zero.

Both of these measures raise Second Amendment concerns as well. It is difficult to claim there is a legitimate reason to ban assault weapons, given the above-explained irrelevance of the distinction. And reviving the 1994 ban’s ten-round cap on magazine capacity would outlaw the standard versions of popular guns such as the Glock 17, which is likely a violation of the Second Amendment interpretation laid out in Heller and McDonald.

The Left would like to take this tragedy as an opportunity to reform our laws in such a way as to make public shootings significantly less likely. This is a noble goal. Bans on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines will not accomplish it.

Banning ?Assault Weapons? Is Not the Answer - The Editors - National Review Online

[kingpin]

After reading through this thread I think there is something that has not been talked about.

Times are different than when most here were young.
When you or even when I was young the world and the society we lived in was a much different place.
We were taught to respect our elders, other peoples property and in turn we grew up to have some type of moral ground and respect for the next person waiting in line at the supermarket.
We weren't a society made up of useless individuals who felt we were owed something and we worked for what we wanted even when we were young.
It was a simpler time and let's face it we weren't aware of half the shit that happened around us. We only had a tv or the loud mouthed neighbour for our news.
Now whether it's good or bad news it's all over us 24 hours a day/365 days a year due to social media and technology. Information overload! Especially for younger people who are still learning and growing up.

What I'm saying boils down to this.

Society has changed, the way young people are growing up has changed, and we have to change and evolve with it.
Sometimes we need to find compromise or we end up in the situations we are in now.

It's all fine and dandy to think and compare to when we were young but it's apples to oranges. This is not 1950-60-70-80.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by kingpin

After reading through this thread I think there is something that has not been talked about.

Times are different than when most here were young.
When you or even when I was young the world and the society we lived in was a much different place.
We were taught to respect our elders, other peoples property and in turn we grew up to have some type of moral ground and respect for the next person waiting in line at the supermarket.
It was a simpler time and let's face it we weren't aware of half the shit that happened around us. We only had a tv or the loud mouthed neighbour for our news.
Now whether it's good or bad news it's all over us 24 hours a day/365 days a year due to social media and technology. Information overload! Especially for younger people who are still learning and growing up.

What I'm saying boils down to this.

Society has changed, the way young people are growing up has changed, and we have to change and evolve with it.
Sometimes we need to find compromise or we end up in the situations we are in now.

It's all fine and dandy to think and compare to when we were young but it's apples to oranges. This is not 1950-60-70-80.

Why is that?

First of all the overall murder rate in the USA has been going DOWN since the 1950 and 1960's. Secondly we have added a massive entitlement subculture that study after study show is undermining and literally destroying whole sections of our culture.

Lastly we have undertaken since the 1980's "Multiculturalism and diversity" Vs the "Melting Pot" of years past. Now we have people allowed to be separate and unequal based on the prevailing PC BS.

[lander]

Holy cow...FACTS!

Something the left is void of...they work on pure emotions, so your facts are irrelevent to them.

[Chris Fowler]

Nice article, but it bothers me that the author is carrying on the trap of referring to an AR-15 as an "assault rifle". The term is misleading enough on it's own, but when most people who Re uneducated on guns think that "assault rifle" is synonymous with "fully automatic" this causes issues.

[Cybercowboy]

As I mentioned over in OT, it took the police 20 minutes - 20 MINUTES - from the time they received the call until the first officer arrived on-scene at Sandy Hook Elementary. I have no idea why, but it seems to me to be a bit excessive to say the least.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Chris Fowler

Nice article, but it bothers me that the author is carrying on the trap of referring to an AR-15 as an "assault rifle". The term is misleading enough on it's own, but when most people who Re uneducated on guns think that "assault rifle" is synonymous with "fully automatic" this causes issues.

I do agree with your comments. The fact is report after report shows that crimes are committed for Socio economic reasons. The data supports it. Homicide rates are down in the USA. Violent crime rates are on a downward trend. The fact is that if we want lower crime rates we have to fix our economic situation. The NAACP and HHS presented facts in 1995, Jack Kemp and Patrick Moynihan came up with a plan in the early 80's. All were ignored simply because it would reduce the amount of government spending on social programs and reduce all the politics power.

Yet the left wants to reduce the number of guns yet the evidence shows that access to guns has no correlation to crime.

[Chris Fowler]

The is still perpetrating the lie that he was carrying an "assault weapon" capable of shooting 10, 20, 30 or even 300 rounds with a single pull of the trigger.

And you wonder why people are ill informed...

[Cybercowboy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fowler

The is still perpetrating the lie that he was carrying an "assault weapon" capable of shooting 10, 20, 30 or even 300 rounds with a single pull of the trigger.

And you wonder why people are ill informed...

And those telling the lie know perfectly well they are lying. And they don't care. And nobody calls them on it because they are just gun nuts or NRA freaks or something.

Here's the deal people. If you give anybody 20 minutes in an elementary school, as the only person with a gun, it doesn't matter what kind of gun you have. Hell, a 1962 S&W .357 revolver with some $1.50 rubber speed loaders could kill 100+ people in that time.

The issue is a long period of time a shooter can go totally unconfronted with any meaningful force in these situations. The weapon of choice is very far down the list. Those two pistols he had were more than up to the task. Hell, he could have reloaded his magazines five or six times with all the time he had. He could have shot 6 shots out of a revolver, reloaded manually without a speed loader, and shot at least 18 rounds a minute.

And before somebody says "Well, as soon as he had to reload, somebody could have tackled him." Not if he had a backup weapon that was always loaded. And it wouldn't have to be anything special at all. He could have committed this act using almost any gun made in the last 130 years.

[Broken Wind]

It doesn't matter. AWB will become a reality. Other stuff will too most likely. The sheep are herded and the political will is there. The cry is that something must be done and something will. Politicians are like water, they always take the path of least resistance.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Cybercowboy

As I mentioned over in OT, it took the police 20 minutes - 20 MINUTES - from the time they received the call until the first officer arrived on-scene at Sandy Hook Elementary. I have no idea why, but it seems to me to be a bit excessive to say the least.

Seems the solution would be to put a donut shop next to every school to lower response time.

I say that in jest, but also as a serious commentary. I drive by a store near my house that will have 3 or 4 police cars parked and the guys standing around chit chatting. If a crime is committed every second of every day, there shouldn't be a lot of down time.

inbeforesomeonesuggeststheyareoffdutyeventhoughthey'llraceoffwiththeirlightsandsirensblazing.

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by VITE1

Got to love the left. The Number one cause for the increase in crime is socio economic issues ( Welfare, Single mother families and Societal disruption) yet the left refuse to admit their policies of the nanny state and Entitlement state are the main driver.

And yet the right's "solution" to those issues - cutting the money - would only make the issues MUCH worse.

[Joecooool]

Private equity firm Cerberus has put U.S. firearms maker Freedom Group up for sale following Friday's killing of 20 children and 6 adults at the Sandy Hook school shooting in Connecticut.

Freedom Group includes Bushmaster, maker of the rifle used in the shooting at the school in Newtown. Cerberus bought Bushmaster in 2006 before adding another 10 makers of firearms, ammunition and accessories to the group.

"It is apparent that the Sandy Hook tragedy was a watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control to an unprecedented level," Cerberus Capital Management said in a statement.

Cerberus will hire advisers to carry out a sale of the company, and return the money to its investors, which include the California State Teachers' Retirement System (CalSTRS).

The investment firm said it was not seeking to influence the debate on gun control but had decided to sell Freedom Group to protect the interests of its clients, which also include the pension plans of other municipal workers, endowments, institutions and individuals.

CalSTRS, which manages the pensions of California public schoolteachers, said Monday it was likely to review whether its indirect investment in Freedom Group was compatible with its investment rules.

"Now that a tragic event like this has occurred, I'm sure that it is something that we will be discussing going forward," CalSTRS spokesman Ricardo Duran told Fortune.

Cerberus is not the only private equity firm with significant holdings in the U.S. gun industry. Longpoint Capital tripled its investment in Savage Sports, which makes rifles and shotguns, when it sold the firm in January in a management buyout backed by Norwest Equity Partners. Sciens Capital Management owns a stake in Colt Defense, the small arms maker.

Gun accessory maker Bushnell is owned by Midocean Partners, and distributors Jerry's and Ellett Brothers are owned by Wellspring Capital.

Shares in publicly traded gun makers Smith & Wesson (SWHC) and Sturm, Ruger (RGR), as well as hunting retailer Cabela's (CAB) fell Monday on signs that politicians may introduce new gun controls.

President Barack Obama has indicated that he will try to bring back restrictions on military-style rifles. In the second presidential debate in the fall, Obama said he was going to see "if we can get an assault weapons ban reintroduced."

Speaking at a vigil for the victims and families Sunday night, he said he would use "whatever power this office holds ... in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this."

[Stangkiller]

Seems like a solid business move, easier to sell the company whole than deal with liquidating if the government forces it out of business.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

And yet the right's "solution" to those issues - cutting the money - would only make the issues MUCH worse.

First off the left created this mess. What did these people do BEFORE Welfare? Their families, Friends and neighbors took care of them. They did not die in the streets , they did not have more kids than they could afford because their support network made them stop. They made the Father pay. And most if not all found some way to earn a living. And you want to keep throwing money at the probelm?


Now let's ween them of it.
How about making them start to EARN their keep?

For the next two years. Anyone collecting government Welfare, Section 8 or Food stamps gets a pass on any income earned. It's 100% their less applicable taxes.

Over the next 8 years for each dollar earned they lose 0.50 in support. Max out the amount they can earn and still get support.( 45K a year?) Medicaid is still available unless they find a job that provide HC.

The those Young mothers who have kids here are the guidelines.

Once you go on Government money any additional kids you have you get nothing more. No food stamps. SSDI, Large Section 8. Nothing. You made a mistake. We are not going to pay for more. If you go on Birth control you get 100.00 a month more. If you don't you risk having to spend more out of your fixed budget.

Each school age child must attend school. Any Unexcused absence is a days pay deducted their benefits. They must attend parent teacher meetings. Any child that is on the honor roll for three consecutive semesters they get a 500.00 Bonus.

While on Government assistance if they do not have a HS diploma they must take classes and earn one. If they do not get one after a fixed period of time ( two years is my proposal) they lose a percentage of their benefits each month until they earn it.

Stay at home moms will be given chores to do in the neighborhood. Cleaning up, Helping the elderly, Babysitting if qualified. If they fail to do their jobs assigned without medical reasons they will lose a part of their benefits.

If they are convicted of any felony they lose all the benefits and the children are taken from them and placed in foster homes.


If you identify the father and he starts making child support payments They get 50% of whatever he pays on top of the benefits. The rest goes against the money being paid to you by the government.

[Stangkiller]

Originally Posted by TxAg

Sell when value is low. BRILLIANT!

Value now is better than value once their main product is outlawed. Currently there's no need to book the big severance liabilities or liquidation costs. Hell there's a chance the ban won't happen, or that somebody would be interested in changing the direction of the company. But don't forget this Q4 and 2013 Q1 will probably be the best sales the company has ever had.

[lander]

Originally Posted by Chris Fowler

Nice article, but it bothers me that the author is carrying on the trap of referring to an AR-15 as an "assault rifle". The term is misleading enough on it's own, but when most people who Re uneducated on guns think that "assault rifle" is synonymous with "fully automatic" this causes issues.

There are many out there that say/think that "AR" stands for "Assault Rifle". They are ignorant of the fact that AR stands for Armalite.

But those that oppose the Constitution won't let the truth stand in their way.

[Cybercowboy]

Listening to the news, apparently the shooter used an AK-15 with 100 round clips full of hollow ammo shooting in fully automatic AR-47 mode.

[6spdC6]

Originally Posted by Cybercowboy

Listening to the news, apparently the shooter used an AK-15 with 100 round clips full of hollow ammo shooting in fully automatic AR-47 mode.

You just got to laugh at some of the shit the anti gun media comes up with.

My favorite is the local female talking head that said something about the cop firing over 20 rounds out of his Glock service revolver and only hitting the perp 3 times! They even had a picture of a Glock showing in the background and to my eyes it looked like a Semi Auto, but I do not know much about guns!