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Old 09-21-2012, 2:26pm   #41
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For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

2 Thessalonians 3:10
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Old 09-21-2012, 3:23pm   #42
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Originally Posted by Loco Vette View Post
Joe, I covered earlier that payroll taxes that go to systems like medicare and SS are not federal income taxes. The difference is that payroll taxes go to programs that have defined benefits for the individual paying in, as opposed to Federal income tax which is spent at the whim of the .gov. So you're down to the other 28%.And you can take out the characterization of the elderly in your 17% pie slice. My parents are 71 and 73, certainly elderly, and they pay a hell of a lot of income tax. So that pie slice should just be "poor". So the only "legit" slice of the 47% is the disabled one. And that includes such massive disabilities as allergies and bogus back injuries.
So we are in agreement that the "47% don't contribute" idea Mitt is pushing really isn't close to being true. When you factor in all the other taxes the majority of these people pay, they are productive members of society. And for the 10% or so of the elderly that no longer work, their going to get a pass because they did work when they were younger.

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But I am not responsible for protecting them from the consequences of their bad decisions such as dropping out of school, doing drugs, or having a kid at 12. Far more people out there that are disadvantaged through their own choices than not. And you can sacrifice quality for cost, I.e. multiple family dwellings, etc.
I'm not saying you specifically are responsible for these people. Society as a whole had decided that we don't want to see people starving in the streets.

And by the way, not all of the 47% Mitt cites are people who do drugs, dropped out of school and had kids. A very large percentage of them include hundreds of thousands of out of work war veterans, millions of college students, and the unemployed actively looking for employment. The number of people you are describing and the right likes to portray as being the typical person receiving government assistance, is anything but. Sure, some of those people are out there, but represent perhaps only 1/5th of the population not paying income taxes.

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And I could have died today solely because I drove a smaller car to the beach instead of the F350, under the right circumstances. We all have to face the consequences of our choices. And as for your appendix example, an ER that refuses care to any patient having an actual emergency would face both civil and likely federal penalties.
They would face civil and federal penalties because the government has stepped in and said you will take care of these people. What your side advocates for is to toss that idea out. That if you can not pay for medical assistance or have insurance, then tough shit. It only because the government has stepped up that the poor are not left for dead.

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Most of them have both of those, as a matter of fact. And since Median household income in the US in 2011 was $50,054, if there is even the slightest correlation between income and taxes most of them are in the 47%. http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/p60-243.pdf Page 13.
This is a point neither of us can prove conclusively. Its not really relevant to the point either of us is trying to make either.

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When the cost of a laborer exceeds his productivity, then he loses his job, it gets outsourced, or if on a large enough scale the employer goes bankrupt and both of the first two happen. This is not a moral thing, this is economic reality. If I am forced to pay you more than I derive in productivity from you, the system collapses e.g. USSR. And if the 47% "deserve" not to pay income taxes, then they damn sure did not/do not "build" the infrastructure. Musta been the 53% then.
Corporate "economic realities" do not excuse us from our social moral obligations. If we have people who are down and out, society has long ago determined that we want a social safety net to help these individuals and families out. What I think many conservatives don't understand is that these is a life time cap on the amount of welfare a person can receive. For most states, its 60 months. The vast majority of people are not on welfare for extended periods of time, most take it when they have to, and strive for gainful employment.

But the reality is simply this. There will always be millions of jobs out there that do not pay a livable wage or offer benefits people need to survive. Your side doesn't want to pay them more nor use illegal immigrants to fill the positions. So now you are left with simply two outcomes. Pull their benefits and let them fend for themselves, or offer them assistance when they need it. The amount we spend on real welfare and assistance - not social security or medicare but real actual welfare is a fart in the wind when compared to the total US budget. I believe its less than 2% of US GDP.

And all of that money is reinvested into the community.

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It worked just fine until the housing bubble created when the libs not only encouraged but required making loans that could not be repaid burst, and triggered a systemic wave of failures.

Gonna head to Chad's bachelor party now. Ball in your court.
That is not true. The capital gains tax has only been at about 15% since 2006. http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf

Have fun with Chad.

Last edited by Joecooool; 09-25-2012 at 11:29am. Reason: Clarified the point I was making.
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Old 09-21-2012, 7:43pm   #43
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Originally Posted by Joecooool View Post
Society as a whole had decided that we don't want to see people starving in the streets.
...and this, that is the basis for all of your reasoning, is absolutely ridiculous.

If you wanted people not to starve, you would be completely ok with giving FOOD to those who need it rather than a check that instead goes to cell phone plans, TVs, and rims.

Simple question. Yes or no. Do you really think that 47% of the population would be "starving in the streets" without the government check that they get?


"Starving in the streets" is nothing more than a 100% bullshit dramatic scare tactic used to support buying votes and distributing wealth. If you really think these people are as helpless as you make them sound, you need to get off of your island for a minute and take a look at reality.
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Old 09-21-2012, 8:09pm   #44
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Originally Posted by Joecooool View Post
My comments are not mutually exclusive. There are millions of hard working Americans earning minimum wage or close to it. They get by with government assistance. If that were to end, some of those people may look at other desperate options.
Um, second job or work harder and get promoted?
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Old 09-21-2012, 8:13pm   #45
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Um, second job or work harder and get promoted?
Many of them would have to get a first job first...
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Old 09-21-2012, 9:29pm   #46
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You think that because they are menial laborers they are more likely to go out and commit crimes when desperate.
I don't think it's a gigantic leap to say that an uneducated individual who performs menial labor COULD be more likely than an educated person to commit a crime of desperation.

And my reasoning is this; if all you've done is flip burgers your entire life with absolutely no ambition, and virtually nothing to lose you MIGHT be more inclined to commit a crime of desperation.

Where as an educated man with a home, etc, and some ambition might think twice before sticking up a liquor store.
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Old 09-22-2012, 7:05am   #47
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Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
I don't think it's a gigantic leap to say that an uneducated individual who performs menial labor COULD be more likely than an educated person to commit a crime of desperation.

And my reasoning is this; if all you've done is flip burgers your entire life with absolutely no ambition, and virtually nothing to lose you MIGHT be more inclined to commit a crime of desperation.

Where as an educated man with a home, etc, and some ambition might think twice before sticking up a liquor store.
If you read the Cato link I provided your opinion is not supported by their findings.
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Old 09-22-2012, 9:19am   #48
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If you read the Cato link I provided
I did. Twice actually. I agree with much of it, but not all.
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:06am   #49
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I did. Twice actually. I agree with much of it, but not all.
OK. This and other studies back up this study.

Let's look at your original statement this way. Those that are doing menial labor are LESS likely, in my opinion, to resort to crime simply because they are working and are trying to succeed within the system. They are closer to those at the "Bottom Rung" of the economic scale yet chose not to take the short cut to crime.

Then look at the past 100 years of history and economic downturns do not have an increase in crime. When yo have other factors like prohibition, Immigration and massive social migration you see and increase in the crime rates.

Lastly, To debunk Phil's comments that they will come into MY house the fact is when the animals prowl they mainly attack in their own neighborhood or culture.

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Old 09-22-2012, 12:55pm   #50
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Lastly, To debunk Phil's comments that they will come into MY house the fat is when the animals prowl they mainly attack in their own neighborhood or culture.


...don't have to look any farther than any of the riots/looting that have happened for various reasons to see that. It isn't the suburbs or the rural areas that they destroy.

You can be certain that they won't be venturing out of the city, and if they did, it would be to their own demise.

If they decide to kill themselves because they are too ignorant to take advantage of the near infinite opportunities afforded them in this country, so be it.
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Old 09-23-2012, 7:28pm   #51
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OK, I am back.
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Originally Posted by Joecooool View Post
So we are in agreement that the "47% don't contribute" idea Mitt is pushing really isn't close to being true. When you factor in all the other taxes the majority of these people pay, they are productive members of society. And for the 10% or so of the elderly that no longer work, their going to get a pass because they did work when they were younger.
No we're not. If the only taxes they pay are to secure a future return to them down the road, then they are contributing to their good, not the common good. And by "other taxes", I assume you mean sales tax, etc. These are consumption based and do not "progress" with the payor's income, therefore they are not part of this discussion.
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I'm not saying you specifically are responsible for these people. Society as a whole had decided that we don't want to see people starving in the streets.
I musta missed that referendum. And even if it is true, "society as a whole" damn sure did not agree to create a system whereby families can go through 3 or 4 generations with no one holding a job, just reproducing.
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And by the way, not all of the 47% Mitt cites are people who do drugs, dropped out of school and had kids. A very large percentage of them include hundreds of thousands of out of work war veterans, millions of college students, and the unemployed actively looking for employment. The number of people you are describing and the right likes to portray as being the typical person receiving government assistance, is anything but. Sure, some of those people are out there, but represent perhaps only 1/5th of the population not paying income taxes.
But the ones that go into the 47% and stay there are there because of poor decisions. People drift in and out of the 47% just like they do the 1%. And where did you get your 1/5 stat? Or is it just your opinion?
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They would face civil and federal penalties because the government has stepped in and said you will take care of these people. What your side advocates for is to toss that idea out. That if you can not pay for medical assistance or have insurance, then tough shit. It only because the government has stepped up that the poor are not left for dead.
When did the GOP start consulting you on the platform? No one is advocating that and you know it.
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This is a point neither of us can prove conclusively. Its not really relevant to the point either of us is trying to make either.
You're the one who dismissed my statement with no data. What data has been shown supports my point. And no, I'm not pullin all their tax returns in to see.
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Economic realities do not excuse us from our moral obligations.
Spoken like a true dreamer. Neither of us can overrule the laws of economics any more than we can the law of gravity. What we can do is look critically at the fact that the "War on Poverty" has been no more effective than the "War on Drugs" and quit throwing more money into the failed machine.
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If we have people who are down and out, society has long ago determined that we want a social safety net to help these individuals and families out. What I think many conservatives don't understand is that these is a life time cap on the amount of welfare a person can receive. For most states, its 60 months. The vast majority of people are not on welfare for extended periods of time, most take it when they have to, and strive for gainful employment.
While that may (and I am not gonna go to the effort to research it) that statement is true only in the classic sense of the word "welfare". SNAP, AFDC, etc have no such restrictions.
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But the reality is simply this. There will always be millions of jobs out there that do not pay a livable wage or offer benefits people need to survive. Your side doesn't want to pay them more nor use illegal immigrants to fill the positions. So now you are left with simply two outcomes. Pull their benefits and let them fend for themselves, or offer them assistance when they need it. The amount we spend on real welfare and assistance - not social security or medicare but real actual welfare is a fart in the wind when compared to the total US budget. I believe its less than 2% of US GDP.
Not true. If a job has to be done and no one is willing to do it for the wage offered, then the wages offered will go up or the job will go undone. Those immigrants you love so much are exacerbating this problem, by the way.
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And all of that money is reinvested into the community.


That is not true. The capital gains tax has only been at about 15% since 2006. http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf
You started with the capital gains rate, I answered, you jumped to the Bush tax cuts, I answered, now we are back to capital cains rates. I will debate either or both of these with you but we have to stay on one subject at a time.
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Have fun with Chad.
It was. He said Hi!
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Old 09-24-2012, 7:48am   #52
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Originally Posted by Joecooool View Post
Economic realities do not excuse us from our moral obligations.

What does this even mean other than you admittedly live in a World devoid of reality?

That's as ridiculous as me saying that I'm not going to let the fact that I am a terrible basketball player stand in the way of becoming an NBA All-Star.

Why would we ever pay attention to something like REALITY?
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Old 09-24-2012, 8:38am   #53
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Originally Posted by Joecooool
Economic realities do not excuse us from our moral obligations.
This should be the Democrat party tagline.

This leads right back to my post on utopia..."wouldn't it be great if...". Reality be damned.
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Old 09-24-2012, 8:52am   #54
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Originally Posted by Joecooool
Economic realities do not excuse us from our moral obligations.
What "Moral Obligations" are you talking about?
Is for those that are at the lower end of the socio economic bracket to do the best they can? Avoiding drugs? Not drinking to excess? Graduating High School? Not having kids they cannot afford? Learning to be thrifty and always save even just a little bit?

Or the Leftist Moral obligation to pay for those who fail to do the minimum simply because they feel its the "Right thing to do" with all the evidence proving them wrong?

Last edited by VITE1; 09-24-2012 at 9:45am.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:21pm   #55
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Originally Posted by Loco Vette View Post
OK, I am back. No we're not. If the only taxes they pay are to secure a future return to them down the road, then they are contributing to their good, not the common good. And by "other taxes", I assume you mean sales tax, etc. These are consumption based and do not "progress" with the payor's income, therefore they are not part of this discussion.
Well, you already said most of your employees in this pool of tax payers have a mortgage, so that means they pay property taxes. They probably have to drive to work so they pay tax on their registrations and then tax on the fuel they use.

I could go on and on.

FYI - Individual income tax only makes up slightly less than half of the money collected by the federal government.

Quote:
I musta missed that referendum. And even if it is true, "society as a whole" damn sure did not agree to create a system whereby families can go through 3 or 4 generations with no one holding a job, just reproducing.
Your characterization of the typical welfare recipient is way off. The largest "ethnic" group is white, and most are only on it for a short period of time. As I already pointed out, there is a 60 month lifetime cap on cash assistance.

The highest percentage of people on welfare are unwed mothers. Which when you combine this with the fact that your side still wants to abolish abortion blows my mind.




Quote:
But the ones that go into the 47% and stay there are there because of poor decisions. People drift in and out of the 47% just like they do the 1%. And where did you get your 1/5 stat? Or is it just your opinion?
So the guys in the military - who qualify to be in the 47% - have made poor decisions?

People with disabilities have made poor decisions?

The elderly living in retirement have made poor decisions?

On top of that, there is only so much income to be made in this country. Not everyone can be a millionaire. If all the sudden everyone became an investment banker, that job would suddenly pay minimum wage.

The VAST majority of poor people are born poor and the VAST majority of wealthy people were born into wealthy families.

Not everyone has parents that can afford law, business or medical school. To whom one is born is the overwhelming factor in whom and what you become.

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When did the GOP start consulting you on the platform? No one is advocating that and you know it.
You - especially coming from your medical background - can not possibly be arguing that conservatives want to expand - or even keep MedicAID at its currently funded levels.

And they didn't have to consult me. Paul Ryan's budget cuts Medicaid by 800 million over the next ten years.

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You're the one who dismissed my statement with no data. What data has been shown supports my point. And no, I'm not pullin all their tax returns in to see.
Since there is no data, neither of us can make a point.

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Spoken like a true dreamer. Neither of us can overrule the laws of economics any more than we can the law of gravity. What we can do is look critically at the fact that the "War on Poverty" has been no more effective than the "War on Drugs" and quit throwing more money into the failed machine.
Let me clarify what I meant. Corporate "economic realities" do not excuse us from our social moral obligations. If a company goes bust our government has programs to help the unemployed.

Quote:
While that may (and I am not gonna go to the effort to research it) that statement is true only in the classic sense of the word "welfare". SNAP, AFDC, etc have no such restrictions.
If you are not going to research it how can you debate it?

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Not true. If a job has to be done and no one is willing to do it for the wage offered, then the wages offered will go up or the job will go undone. Those immigrants you love so much are exacerbating this problem, by the way.
Its absolutely true. When we ship more and more good paying jobs overseas, the dwindling pool of available jobs are the low paying jobs. People take those jobs because they have no other choice.

And its your party that objects to punishing the companies that hire illegals by the way.

Quote:
You started with the capital gains rate, I answered, you jumped to the Bush tax cuts, I answered, now we are back to capital cains rates. I will debate either or both of these with you but we have to stay on one subject at a time.
The Bush tax cuts INCLUDED lowering the capital gains tax.

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It was. He said Hi!
Looks like you guys had a good time.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:22pm   #56
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So how much have YOU voluntarily paid extra to the government to meet your "moral obligations"?

This answer always goes unanswered from modern liberal socialist democrats.
Because it is a stupid question.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:42pm   #57
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The highest percentage of people on welfare are unwed mothers. Which when you combine this with the fact that your side still wants to abolish abortion blows my mind.
So it blows your mind that "our side" wants to stop killing unborn children?

Tell you what, f u ck you. I'm done with your fu cking bullshit if that's "your side". Bitch.
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Old 09-25-2012, 1:56pm   #58
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Your characterization of the typical welfare recipient is way off. The largest "ethnic" group is white...
I'll post the exact same thing I posted the last time you made this stupid argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO
Source: US Department of Health and Human Services, U.S. Department of Commerce

Date of data: 5.18.2012
  • Total number of Americans on welfare ~15,000,000
  • Percent of recipients who are white 38.8 %
  • Percent of recipients who are black 39.8 %
  • Percent of recipients who are hispanic 15.7 %
  • Percent of recipients who are Asian 2.4 %
  • Percent of recipients who are Other 3.3 %

Of the total US population, whites make up 78.1% (~243,000,000) and blacks 13.1% (40,818,000). From: US census bureau

USA QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

Do the math. Better yet, I'll do it for you since things like numbers and facts seem to be above your comprehension level. Based on these numbers from the Dept of Health and Human Services and the US Census bureau (not politically spun crap like you quote), a black American is over 6 times as likely to be on welfare (14.6% vs 2.3%).

Please, don't let things like facts stand in the way of the stupid shit you post.
Your reply last time was claiming that you didn't believe the source and posting a google search result as a rebuttal.

Of course you failed (like you always do) to provide any numbers showing otherwise.

As I showed before, the numbers above are compiled from quite a few sources including multiple universities.

IU for example:

https://resources.oncourse.iu.edu/ac...e%20policy.pdf




Now, I challenge you to reply to the following 2 things rather than just leaving the thread like last time.


1. Please, post specific numbers instead of just a listing of libtard blogs who throw out the argument that "more white people are on welfare" without ever showing any sort of data to back it up. This is very simple. Post up actual data from some sort of reputable source that proves your point. A bunch of liberal websites making claims without numbers to back them up is not data. A "study" done by a blogger is not data.



Look at the charts and numbers. Every one of them not only shows that there are more blacks than whites on welfare, but that the gap is widening.



What is also shown is that white people living below the poverty line are also much less likely to be on welfare.





2. This is so simple that meven you might be able to understand it. It requires a 1 word answer. True or false, a black American is more likely to be on welfare than a white one?

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to actually show facts to back up your comments.

Last edited by RedLS1GTO; 09-25-2012 at 2:19pm.
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Old 09-25-2012, 1:59pm   #59
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Originally Posted by Joecooool

The highest percentage of people on welfare are unwed mothers. Which when you combine this with the fact that your side still wants to abolish abortion blows my mind.
Your logic make a pretzel look straight.

The single mother rate remained fairly constant for all Americans up until 1965. It started to grow rapidly after that time. Welfare was and is the root cause for the growth of single mothers.

Yet abortion has been legal since the mid 1970's and the abortion rates are climbing. YET single mother growth is claiming as well.

The ONLY thing that significantly reduced single mother rate was the Welfare reform act under Clinton. After a decade of decline it started rising again due to reforms, SSDI payments and the increased availability of food stamps and other benefits like section 8 housing.

Your hypocrisy is showing.

Why does the government tell us not to feed the animals since they will continue to reproduce to match their food supply yet they want to keep paying welfare?
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Old 09-25-2012, 2:10pm   #60
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Originally Posted by lander View Post
So it blows your mind that "our side" wants to stop killing unborn children?

Tell you what, f u ck you. I'm done with your fu cking bullshit if that's "your side". Bitch.
Oh my.
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