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Old 10-13-2011, 4:15pm   #61
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They are just going to pass on those taxes to the consumer. Why is it that you can't comprehend that?
Liberalism.

It means that you replace facts, logic, numbers, and reality with sunshine, flowers, and rainbows.
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Old 10-13-2011, 4:26pm   #62
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Liberalism.

It means that you replace facts, logic, numbers, and reality with sunshine, flowers, and rainbows.
Classic!
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Old 10-13-2011, 4:31pm   #63
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They are just going to pass on those taxes to the consumer. Why is it that you can't comprehend that?
That is a false dichotomy.

Companies only pass costs along to their customers if they can.

If a company could simply increase prices, they would all do it, with or without a tax increase. But if they did so, they may just price themselves out of the market.

They will either take the hit of an increased corporate income tax through their profits, or lose their customer base.

Consider this - A company prices its product or service to meet market demands. If corporations could pass all of a tax increase along to their customers, they would have no reason to object to increased taxes. Republicans would also not object because more taxpayers who today pay little or no taxes, would then pay more taxes and reduce the deficit.

That ain't whats happening...
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Old 10-13-2011, 5:04pm   #64
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That is a false dichotomy.

Companies only pass costs along to their customers if they can.

If a company could simply increase prices, they would all do it, with or without a tax increase. But if they did so, they may just price themselves out of the market.

They will either take the hit of an increased corporate income tax through their profits, or lose their customer base.

Consider this - A company prices its product or service to meet market demands. If corporations could pass all of a tax increase along to their customers, they would have no reason to object to increased taxes. Republicans would also not object because more taxpayers who today pay little or no taxes, would then pay more taxes and reduce the deficit.

That ain't whats happening...
you have GOT to be fecking shitting me!...did you really just write that? and you actually believe that?

Am i being trolled and baited here?
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Old 10-13-2011, 5:14pm   #65
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I think many of you are missing the point of these protests. Fox just shows the loons and focuses on them to discredit the group while ignoring the core issues these people are pissed off about.

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The entire point of my article is that the protesters don't have a focus on core issues. They don't seem to have a focus at all. Unless the focus is class warfare.
Our corporations are exporting jobs overseas. They fire Americans and hire cheap Chinese labor. Our country has lost its ability to manufacture goods and services. Think about that for a minute. These protesters didn't do that, corporations did.

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Remember when I said "specific" in my article with regard to targeting? "Corporations" is too general. Guess what? I am the sole shareholder in a corporation. I don't hire Chinese labor. My son is the majority shareholder in a corporation. He doesn't hire Chinese labor either. I'd say corporations just do what corporations do - make money. The entire basis of the economy has changed. We are leaving the industrial era and moving to a knowledge economy. Adapt or die.
Our corporations exploit loop holes in tax laws and many of them pay no taxes at all. You may say that's fine because all good businesses take advantage of every opportunity available to them. What you either ignore or don't understand is that these loop holes exist because corporations have paid politicians to create them.

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Again, broad brush here and not accurate. Every time I cut a pay check it costs my corporation about $600. That's $14.4K a year per employee. These "loopholes" you talk about include buying computer equipment. It's a "write off" but I still have to pay for it.

One question (with no judgement - just curious) have you ever owned a company and been responsible for a P&L?

In the domain of the very large corporations, yes, they pay a lower percentage because of the way they compensate employees. However, the dollar amount is staggering. While GE might say they don't pay any taxes, that is not accurate. It's too complex to get into here. But don't believe everything you hear on the news.
And speaking of paid for politicians, that's the real problem. Corporate lobbyist have been working over these jerks for years. Politicians now answer to companies before citizens. With the recent Supreme Court decision overturning decades old campaign finance laws, we as individuals now matter even less. You really think our politicians are going to pass laws protecting Americans from corporations when its the companies paying for their campaigns? Our government is "loop holed" out of hundreds of billions of tax dollars every year. Corporations were able to do that by spending just about a combined hundred million dollars in political donations.

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I agree this is a huge problem. Not sure how realistic it is to remove the issue entirely. Protesting Wallstreet does nothing to resolve this issue. Going to the ballot box will do the trick.
MOST of the very wealthy in this country derive their income from investments which are taxed at 15%. Sorry, but that's BULLSHIT. These people benefit more than anyone else from our system of government yet they pay less in taxes as a percentage of income than some schmuck making $50,000 a year. Any anyone calling these people "job creators" is an asshole. They are taxed at the lowest rate in more than half a century? What jobs are they creating? I call them "job destroyers" because these are the "investors" telling corporations they need to be more profitable and forcing them to export jobs overseas or lay off Americans to increase profits. Fcuk them, pay up.

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Wrong again. They already paid income tax on the money used to invest. They pay 15% on the profit from the investment. It's called an incentive to invest. Remember, they could have LOST ALL THEIR MONEY just as easily. BTW, investment = jobs.
In 2008, corporate executives made on average, about 319 times more than the average worker. Compare that to a multiple of 42 in 1980. The sums paid to executives on Wall Street are greater still, routinely reaching the tens of millions. Pay norms are so high in the financial services sector that the $17 million bonus paid to J.P. Morgan Chase Company Chairman James Dimon was called a “concession to criticism.” In 2008, Dimon’s bonus was $28 million. Where are they getting all the money to pay these ultra wealthy? Again, from outsourcing jobs, taking advantage of tax loop holes, and laying off Americans.

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This is simply class warfare. What is stopping you from exploiting the same system that these guys do? Perhaps studying finance, business or law might get you up in the income percentages. Executives make more than "average workers" because they are not "average workers". The market determines the wage according to the value of the worker. Look at it this way - thousands of people can work on the assembly line (supply is greater than demand) but relatively few people can run the assembly plant at a profit (greater demand than supply = higher wage). What is stopping you or any of those protesters from increasing their value? Nothing.
These are relatively new things that Americans have to face. This kind of shit wasn't so widespread just ten years ago. I understand why they are upset and I agree with their protest. If you want to look at the handful of nuts FOX parades in front of the camera and think this is what this is all about, well, that's on you.

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Fox has nothing to do with it. Read "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alynski - you'll see exactly what is going on.
Our country is going to shit because corporations have taken over the political process and now dictate the laws that are written.

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That is certainly one reason. Another reason is the ignorance of the masses and the welfare "entitlement" state the "progressives" in government has created. The protests are the result of people who believe that the government and corporations should take care of them instead of them taking care of themselves.
The good news is that there are a lot of people who know the score. We know what is going on. We understand the methods the left uses. And, based on the protesters I've seen in person (not on Fox) I'd say we are a lot smarter than them.

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Old 10-13-2011, 5:18pm   #66
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Am i being trolled and baited here?
Sadly... no.
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Old 10-13-2011, 5:38pm   #67
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Occupy Wall Street now much more popular than Tea Party.

Occupy Wall Street: More Popular than the Tea Party | Swampland | TIME.com
Good Lord, man. That article is left leaning B.S. Notice they don't say who they surveyed nor do they give any detail about the survey or the questions. Not to mention Time's notorious slant to the left. The author of that article is also a Pub basher.
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Old 10-13-2011, 5:51pm   #68
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A for-profit business exists for one reason only, Joecooool: to make a profit.

If a business can't turn a profit high enough to satisfy its owners, it goes out of business. The owners will simply look elsewhere to get a desirable return from another investment or a different business.

Taxes, among other costs, can tip any business over the edge. If the market won't allow an increase in cost due to any increase in expenses such as taxes the business cannot remain afloat.

Any idiot should be able to comprehend this simple concept.
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Old 10-13-2011, 7:31pm   #69
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Originally Posted by Joecooool View Post
That is a false dichotomy.

Companies only pass costs along to their customers if they can.

If a company could simply increase prices, they would all do it, with or without a tax increase. But if they did so, they may just price themselves out of the market.

They will either take the hit of an increased corporate income tax through their profits, or lose their customer base.

Consider this - A company prices its product or service to meet market demands. If corporations could pass all of a tax increase along to their customers, they would have no reason to object to increased taxes. Republicans would also not object because more taxpayers who today pay little or no taxes, would then pay more taxes and reduce the deficit.

That ain't whats happening...

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Originally Posted by syf350 View Post
you have GOT to be fecking shitting me!...did you really just write that? and you actually believe that?

Am i being trolled and baited here?
F'king clueless. I am done with you Phil. Not worth my time. It's unbelievable how naive you really are.

Bleeding heart liberals. "Oooo, those nasty, mean, rich corporations." again.
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Old 10-13-2011, 7:57pm   #70
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Here's a few stats for Mr. Cool.

The corporate tax rate is not 15% it is 35%.
You need to earn about $380K to enter the 1% category.
That 1% earn about 18% of all income in the U.S.
But they pay 40% of all taxes.

Corporations and high earners pay far more than "their share".

The people protesting are ignorant. But I do agree that corporations have too much influence on the political process.
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Old 10-13-2011, 8:00pm   #71
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Originally Posted by Thrakk View Post
Here's a few stats for Mr. Cool.

The corporate tax rate is not 15% it is 35%.
You need to earn about $380K to enter the 1% category.
That 1% earn about 18% of all income in the U.S.
But they pay 40% of all taxes.

Corporations and high earners pay far more than "their share".

The people protesting are ignorant. But I do agree that corporations have too much influence on the political process.
Fact.
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Old 10-13-2011, 8:04pm   #72
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Originally Posted by Thrakk View Post
Here's a few stats for Mr. Cool.

The corporate tax rate is not 15% it is 35%.
You need to earn about $380K to enter the 1% category.
That 1% earn about 18% of all income in the U.S.
But they pay 40% of all taxes.

Corporations and high earners pay far more than "their share".

The people protesting are ignorant. But I do agree that corporations have too much influence on the political process.
Don't be bringing facts and logic into this thread. It's all about flowers and rainbows as RedLS1GTO said.
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Old 10-13-2011, 9:55pm   #73
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Corporations are like electricity; they take the path of least resistance.

I can outsource jobs to make my numbers? I can buy favorable tax legislation?
Fine, do it.

It's all down in broad daylight, during business hours at the Hart and Rayburn buildings.
And here's the real problem. as we cut to the chase. Forgetting undisciplined dirty hippies for a moment, it's become painfully obvious to the average working (or often unemployed) American how closely the interests of Wall St, Corporations, and Washington DC are aligned. And here's a news flash- those interests aren't generally for the benefit of those average Americans. As long as the boom proceeded, and everyone participated, it was all good.

Now the ugly reality has set in. All that new wealth Wall St created using the new paradigm? Poof- the new paradigm was just the old smoke and mirrors. And those stunning losses? Yup- the taxpayer wound up being the backstop. And those Corporations, the ones that convinced us those high-paying manufacturing jobs shipped overseas would easily be replaced by new, high-tech jobs locally? Some went under- again the taxpayer stepped in. Others found out it's tough to sell stuff when the consumer is struggling to keep a roof over their head. And that global economy? Turned into 10% unemployment, and double that rate for young workers. Yeah, that worked out well. And all those service sector jobs created? Hard to buy a house on $10/hr. (It'll take decades to work off that excess inventory, but that's another story).

Which brings us to today, and a bunch of pot-smoking hippies calling BS on the whole system. Here's my question- how many mainstream voters are sitting in front of their TV's nodded their heads quietly to what these kids are saying? My guess is, one helluva lot more than anyone here thinks.

Which should make the elections of 2012 a lot more entertaining than anyone's expecting right now.
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Old 10-14-2011, 8:35am   #74
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And here's the real problem. as we cut to the chase. Forgetting undisciplined dirty hippies for a moment, it's become painfully obvious to the average working (or often unemployed) American how closely the interests of Wall St, Corporations, and Washington DC are aligned. And here's a news flash- those interests aren't generally for the benefit of those average Americans. As long as the boom proceeded, and everyone participated, it was all good.

Now the ugly reality has set in. All that new wealth Wall St created using the new paradigm? Poof- the new paradigm was just the old smoke and mirrors. And those stunning losses? Yup- the taxpayer wound up being the backstop. And those Corporations, the ones that convinced us those high-paying manufacturing jobs shipped overseas would easily be replaced by new, high-tech jobs locally? Some went under- again the taxpayer stepped in. Others found out it's tough to sell stuff when the consumer is struggling to keep a roof over their head. And that global economy? Turned into 10% unemployment, and double that rate for young workers. Yeah, that worked out well. And all those service sector jobs created? Hard to buy a house on $10/hr. (It'll take decades to work off that excess inventory, but that's another story).

Which brings us to today, and a bunch of pot-smoking hippies calling BS on the whole system. Here's my question- how many mainstream voters are sitting in front of their TV's nodded their heads quietly to what these kids are saying? My guess is, one helluva lot more than anyone here thinks.

Which should make the elections of 2012 a lot more entertaining than anyone's expecting right now.
Good points.
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Old 10-14-2011, 9:48am   #75
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Vilifying corporations because they take advantage of completely legal tax legislation is ridiculous and counter-productive.

If that's what those goofy protesters are doing, they are stupider than I think they are.

Capitalism is what made this country great; it insured our freedoms, funded our military and gave us the highest standard of living in the world.
Anyone who doesn't accept that as gospel is either functionally illiterate or being fed through a tube.

That being said, you still have to make your own way. Like I always say, the world don't GAS enough about you to want to eff you over.

Unfortunately what I see today is that many, many citizens of this country are looking for a free ride. Bailouts, handouts, loan forgiveness, hep' me b/c of the color of my skin or my ancestry...

Give it a rest and go bust your own ass.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:00am   #76
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What I don't understand is the main concept of this. It seems completely ass backwards to go after those who are sucessful.

Maybe I was raised in a different manner, but my whole life, I have done everything I could to bring myself up to the highest level... not bring those who were more sucessful down.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:09am   #77
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F'king clueless. I am done with you Phil. Not worth my time. It's unbelievable how naive you really are.

Bleeding heart liberals. "Oooo, those nasty, mean, rich corporations." again.
You're just now figuring that out? I figured Phil out about 9 years ago.

He is a nice guy in person but his online socialist persona is -worthy.

Trying to fisk his many posts in this thread would be fun but I simply don't have the time or energy to engage him. But I will just leave him with this. He claims that corporations have offshored our manufacturing sector. That's utter bullshit because the US of A manufactures 1/5 of the world's goods, and we manufacture more items every single year but for 2 (2000 and 2008) going back to the 70's. But we have offshored a good amount of manufacturing in that time. So how is this possible? In the fuzzy liberal mind, it isn't. But small L libertarians like myself know the answer.

It's INCREASED PRODUCTIVITY! And a lot of that increased productivity comes in the form of robotics, computerized manufacturing method, and other related things that result in more product at a lower labor input. This may mean 20 workers are replaced by a machine, like a CNC operator can replace 20 guys running a lathe.

And another thing. People who pay 15% on Capital Gains are "only" paying that much because the money they invested has ALREADY BEEN TAXED as income. Duh frickin' duh. This is similar to a socialist bitching that sales taxes aren't 50% for rich people or something like that. And to randomly state that only rich people get taxed at this 15% rate is the height of ignorance and should tell you all you need to know about his knowledge on the subject.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:13am   #78
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What I don't understand is the main concept of this. It seems completely ass backwards to go after those who are sucessful.

Maybe I was raised in a different manner, but my whole life, I have done everything I could to bring myself up to the highest level... not bring those who were more sucessful down.
You would make a damn poor socialist.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:51am   #79
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I'm stealing this from the other place, but it fits in with some of what Polar_Bear said.

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Originally Posted by Guru_4_Hire
Fundamentally people are convinced that other people exist for their benefit, and as long as we had endless growth and prosperity the fundamental weaknesses could be papered over. Now we have a period of austerity and the half truths of the old social order are exposed to be the half truths they are. Other people arent theirs to do their bidding, and arent doing their bidding anymore.

People are mad because they have this very expensive peice of paper called a degree and are looking around for that good job that they were promised and it isnt there. The people making the promises were never the people that had to carry out those promises. So when we examine point one, we understand why people are standing around mad that somebody isnt doing what they are supposed to do because they have a claim inherant to their existence to a portion of someone elses stuff regardless of their actual willingness in the matter. People are demanding that "the system" aka "other people" do what they want them to do because a bunch of low level government flunkies lied to them their whole life. Now their sheepskin is worth less than the paper it was printed on, and "the system" isnt what was sold to them.

You have a conception of the social contract that says that other people are owed inherant to their existence a high paying job with good benefits because you tithed the democratic party 100 grand at their temples around the nation. Well, they payed the tithe and now society isnt providing their part of the bargain, even though the people whom they entered into the bargain with had no ability to compell society at large to provide what was being promised.

Thats why people are pissed, because they got sold a bargain by people with no ability to provide what was being bargained, and now the crushing reality of the fraud in the supposed social contract is exposed. They feel the system owes them, and the system was never what they were told the system was.

If people want to be mad be mad at the people who took your money and sold you stars and caviar dreams, and now your standing on an empty street and that AV tech job that pays low 30s just isnt good enough, because you paid your tithe and bought your ticket and you want your stars and caviar dreams.

There is a romanticized notion of a social contract that doesnt actually exist.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:43pm   #80
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You would make a damn poor socialist.
Why yes... yes I would.

I take that as one hell of a compliment.
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