C8Z06 vs Tesla

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I drive an S6. Yesterday I drove an A6 around town. Same platform minus the performance parts. I wasn't racing it. I wasn't getting anywhere close to any limits of acceleration or handling. I could sure as shit tell the difference. I didn't have to have my foot to the floor to feel the power difference. I didn't have to be spinning out around corners to feel the handling difference. If you lack that feel, as I have said multiple times, it's ok. Most people probably wouldn't notice. Your problem, as usual, is the asinine belief that somehow your represent more than yourself and if you can't tell the difference, nobody else can.

My wife's car is a newer Explorer Sport with the twin turbo engine. It does pretty well in straight line acceleration, but even at legal speeds there's a massive difference in curves between it and my C7. And the Explorer (a real SUV, unlike the Tesla) can pull more than 0.86 g's in a corner with no problem.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

My wife's car is a newer Explorer Sport with the twin turbo engine. It does pretty well in straight line acceleration, but even at legal speeds there's a massive difference in curves between it and my C7. And the Explorer (a real SUV, unlike the Tesla) can pull more than 0.86 g's in a corner with no problem.

Bullshit. Unless you are racing on a road course or grossly exceeding the speed limit, the Explorer handles just as well as the Vette. There is no difference.

Liar.

[Loco Vette]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Without proper training and tons of practice, you can't take your car to anywhere close to it's limits without a high risk of ending up in a ditch if you ever try to take your performance car to it's limits.

Same is true at a much lower level for nonperformance cars.

[sublime1996525]

Glad I finally clicked on this thread. The Cybertruck is trash and it’s comical to compare it to a Raptor or TRX

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My Model X plaid pulls 0.86 lateral g in sports suspension setup which I will likely never experience.

I'm bored so I'm coming back to this.

You look at a number on a spec sheet that is a test done under controlled conditions. You somehow completely fail to understand that it is more complex than that. Saying that 2 cars that both see .86g on the skid pad handle the same is ... simply wrong. That is an absurdly simple minded view. You're right about 1 thing. You will never see .86 sustained because it's not going to get there unless it is perfect conditions on a perfect surface. What you would likely see if you looked at data are numbers higher than .86. Why is that? Because outside of a skidpad, there are peaks and valleys. A bump in a corner could easily spike a peak number well beyond what you would see on a skidpad. An uneven surface would certainly see areas of a plot greater than peak skidpad. With that said, I'll back up a bit ask a very simple question. Do you actually know what a skidpad measures? For bonus points, can you explain why that isn't 1:1 applicable to anything in the real world?

I'm guessing that without a google search, the answer is no.

I have set up race cars (and karts) for decades. I've set them up to go in circles. I've set them up to go on road courses, to drive down the street. I currently set up karts for both my own kid as well as others (because I know what I'm doing) to go race in some of the biggest races in the country.

I can absolutely guarantee you that outside of a sales pitch (aimed at people like you), a skidpad doesn't tell you much at all. It says what happens in a constant radius turn on a perfectly flat surface under ideal conditions. That represents about 1% of what happens in reality. On that same note, if you think that it's repeatable, you are again clueless. Go to a skidpad on a 60 degree day with 80% humidity and again when it's 85 degrees and a dry day and your numbers will be drastically different. Using them as you do as the be-all end-all measure of handling is ignorant. High speed corners are different than low speed. Bumpy is different than smooth. A few degrees of temperature or humidity makes a huge difference. Tire compound changes everything again. Sometimes, and I know this is going to be a tough one for you, you can actually have too much grip which decreases slip angle and hurts the ability to rotate through a corner. In which case, yes, you want to actually lower the lateral acceleration to go faster. There are many many times where max lateral G doesn't equal a better lap time, entry speed, exit speed, feel, stability, or anything else. Yea, I don't expect you to even begin to understand that one. And you don't have to. Most people don't... but most people also understand that they don't. You on the other hand, not so much. You continue to argue things that you know nothing about.

Are you really so simple minded that you think somehow all aspects of handling are captured in a single skidpad test? Do you really believe that you can compare skidpad tests from different days, in different conditions, on different pavement and somehow declare that 1 is better than another?

We get it. You don't care about handling. That's great... but for the love of god, try to get it through your head that "performance", be it handling or any other aspect is much more complex than a couple of numbers on a spec sheet.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

for a decent size SUV, it is actually very good.

Except that's it's not. Like, at all.

[VatorMan]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I'm bored so I'm coming back to this.

You look at a number on a spec sheet that is a test done under controlled conditions. You somehow completely fail to understand that it is more complex than that. Saying that 2 cars that both see .86g on the skid pad handle the same is ... simply wrong. That is an absurdly simple minded view. You're right about 1 thing. You will never see .86 sustained because it's not going to get there unless it is perfect conditions on a perfect surface. What you would likely see if you looked at data are numbers higher than .86. Why is that? Because outside of a skidpad, there are peaks and valleys. A bump in a corner could easily spike a peak number well beyond what you would see on a skidpad. An uneven surface would certainly see areas of a plot greater than peak skidpad. With that said, I'll back up a bit ask a very simple question. Do you actually know what a skidpad measures? For bonus points, can you explain why that isn't 1:1 applicable to anything in the real world?

I'm guessing that without a google search, the answer is no.

I have set up race cars (and karts) for decades. I've set them up to go in circles. I've set them up to go on road courses, to drive down the street. I currently set up karts for both my own kid as well as others (because I know what I'm doing) to go race in some of the biggest races in the country.

I can absolutely guarantee you that outside of a sales pitch (aimed at people like you), a skidpad doesn't tell you much at all. It says what happens in a constant radius turn on a perfectly flat surface under ideal conditions. That represents about 1% of what happens in reality. On that same note, if you think that it's repeatable, you are again clueless. Go to a skidpad on a 60 degree day with 80% humidity and again when it's 85 degrees and a dry day and your numbers will be drastically different. Using them as you do as the be-all end-all measure of handling is ignorant. High speed corners are different than low speed. Bumpy is different than smooth. A few degrees of temperature or humidity makes a huge difference. Tire compound changes everything again. Sometimes, and I know this is going to be a tough one for you, you can actually have too much grip which decreases slip angle and hurts the ability to rotate through a corner. In which case, yes, you want to actually lower the lateral acceleration to go faster. There are many many times where max lateral G doesn't equal a better lap time, entry speed, exit speed, feel, stability, or anything else. Yea, I don't expect you to even begin to understand that one. And you don't have to. Most people don't... but most people also understand that they don't. You on the other hand, not so much. You continue to argue things that you know nothing about.

Are you really so simple minded that you think somehow all aspects of handling are captured in a single skidpad test? Do you really believe that you can compare skidpad tests from different days, in different conditions, on different pavement and somehow declare that 1 is better than another?

We get it. You don't care about handling. That's great... but for the love of god, try to get it through your head that "performance", be it handling or any other aspect is much more complex than a couple of numbers on a spec sheet.

Don’t get into tire pressures or camber, you’ll blow his mind.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

Don’t get into tire pressures or camber, you’ll blow his mind.

Most people can understand tire pressure and camber. When you start getting into things like caster, how it impacts weight transfer, Ackermann, and things like that, I think we'd have a problem.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Most people can understand tire pressure and camber. When you start getting into things like caster, how it impacts weight transfer, Ackermann, and things like that, I think we'd have a problem.

Ooh ooh...and bump steer...and neutral steer...are those ones too? LOL! This Tesla plant is boring.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Most people can understand tire pressure and camber. When you start getting into things like caster, how it impacts weight transfer, Ackermann, and things like that, I think we'd have a problem.

I designed and fabricated a new linked coilover suspension for my '69 Bronco when we lived in CO. I had to learn a whole lot about that stuff to get it set up right. I even had to cut the knuckles off the D60 front axle and rotate them a few degrees to get the correct caster so it would be drivable.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I'm bored so I'm coming back to this.

You look at a number on a spec sheet that is a test done under controlled conditions. You somehow completely fail to understand that it is more complex than that. Saying that 2 cars that both see .86g on the skid pad handle the same is ... simply wrong. That is an absurdly simple minded view. You're right about 1 thing. You will never see .86 sustained because it's not going to get there unless it is perfect conditions on a perfect surface. What you would likely see if you looked at data are numbers higher than .86. Why is that? Because outside of a skidpad, there are peaks and valleys. A bump in a corner could easily spike a peak number well beyond what you would see on a skidpad. An uneven surface would certainly see areas of a plot greater than peak skidpad. With that said, I'll back up a bit ask a very simple question. Do you actually know what a skidpad measures? For bonus points, can you explain why that isn't 1:1 applicable to anything in the real world?

I'm guessing that without a google search, the answer is no.

I have set up race cars (and karts) for decades. I've set them up to go in circles. I've set them up to go on road courses, to drive down the street. I currently set up karts for both my own kid as well as others (because I know what I'm doing) to go race in some of the biggest races in the country.

I can absolutely guarantee you that outside of a sales pitch (aimed at people like you), a skidpad doesn't tell you much at all. It says what happens in a constant radius turn on a perfectly flat surface under ideal conditions. That represents about 1% of what happens in reality. On that same note, if you think that it's repeatable, you are again clueless. Go to a skidpad on a 60 degree day with 80% humidity and again when it's 85 degrees and a dry day and your numbers will be drastically different. Using them as you do as the be-all end-all measure of handling is ignorant. High speed corners are different than low speed. Bumpy is different than smooth. A few degrees of temperature or humidity makes a huge difference. Tire compound changes everything again. Sometimes, and I know this is going to be a tough one for you, you can actually have too much grip which decreases slip angle and hurts the ability to rotate through a corner. In which case, yes, you want to actually lower the lateral acceleration to go faster. There are many many times where max lateral G doesn't equal a better lap time, entry speed, exit speed, feel, stability, or anything else. Yea, I don't expect you to even begin to understand that one. And you don't have to. Most people don't... but most people also understand that they don't. You on the other hand, not so much. You continue to argue things that you know nothing about.

Are you really so simple minded that you think somehow all aspects of handling are captured in a single skidpad test? Do you really believe that you can compare skidpad tests from different days, in different conditions, on different pavement and somehow declare that 1 is better than another?

We get it. You don't care about handling. That's great... but for the love of god, try to get it through your head that "performance", be it handling or any other aspect is much more complex than a couple of numbers on a spec sheet.

It really does not matter what the number is because unless you either go to the race track or you drive at criminal speeds, you will never get close to the limit of ANY car. As I said, I had 13 Vettes and a Ferrari and the only difference you can feel while not driving at criminal speeds is how bumpy a performance suspension is in the highway. In the Testarossa which had suspension mods from the previous owner, you would feel every bump in the road. My Z51 Vettes (one of my 95 Verts was Z51 and my 2005 Vert as well) were slighly more bumpy than my non Z51 Vettes.
I never cornered at criminal speeds, so, I didn't see a difference when driving corners at legal speeds. It's not like I didn't have cars with performance suspension. I just never tested it at criminal speeds. There is no way that even at 10 mph over the limit, you can feel the benefits of a sport suspension. As I said, I had many Vettes.. The difference I could notice is that it was less comfortable at the highway. Speed limits are set so that even the worst handling cars can drive safe at that speed.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Yea. It's still funny that you are absolutely incapable of comprehending anything other than a max number on a spec sheet.

Are you really telling me that you can't tell the difference in handling between a Ferrari and a school bus without reaching the maximum lateral acceleration on them?

If nothing else, you should have a good reference to the school bus with your Tesla...

So, you think that you can reach maximum lateral acceleration without going to the race track OR driving at criminal speeds (in Florida, 20+ mph over is criminal with mandatory court appearance). You won't get anywhere close to that unless you drive well over the speed limit.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Most people can understand tire pressure and camber. When you start getting into things like caster, how it impacts weight transfer, Ackermann, and things like that, I think we'd have a problem.

Because all that matters if you drive close to the speed limit

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, you think that you can reach maximum lateral acceleration without going to the race track OR driving at criminal speeds (in Florida, 20+ mph over is criminal with mandatory court appearance). You won't get anywhere close to that unless you drive well over the speed limit.

50 mph over the speed limit is a felony.
30 mph over the speed limit is a misdemeanor.
1-29 mph over the speed limit is a fine only.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, you think that you can reach maximum lateral acceleration without going to the race track OR driving at criminal speeds (in Florida, 20+ mph over is criminal with mandatory court appearance). You won't get anywhere close to that unless you drive well over the speed limit.

You really are clueless about anything other than acceleration in a straight line.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

It really does not matter what the number is because unless you either go to the race track or you drive at criminal speeds, you will never get close to the limit of ANY car.

My god you are dense. If that is really your takeaway from what I said...

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

As I said, I had 13 Vettes and a Ferrari and the only difference you can feel while not driving at criminal speeds is how bumpy a performance suspension is in the highway.

And as I have said many times, no, that's apparently all that YOU can feel...

If you are so oblivious that you can't tell the difference between the handling of a Corvette, Ferrari, an SUV, or whatever without being at "the limit" there is absolutely nothing left to say. I've explained it multiple times. I refuse to believe that you are actually serious. Even my wife came home the other day and said something was different in the Audi. It didn't drive as well. The difference? It was set to "comfort" instead of "sport". My wife can figure it out in a car that she rarely drives on a trip to the grocery store when she's not even trying. Hell, my 7 year old kid can not only feel differences in handling during test sessions without ever being close to the limit in his karts but also communicate what those differences are. I went too far and dialed too much caster into a kart last season. He came in after the out lap, after 1 50% lap, and said it was rotating too quickly on entry. He was right. That was nowhere even in the vicinity of "the limit". That wasn't even in the realm of maximum lateral acceleration and he could feel the difference in handling. Now I'm going to say it again... he's 7.

You don't have to be at "the limit". I don't know how many times that needs to be said before you manage to understand it.

Or, option B, you could just say that he difference is "bumpy". Holy shit.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

In the Testarossa which had suspension mods from the previous owner, you would feel every bump in the road. My Z51 Vettes (one of my 95 Verts was Z51 and my 2005 Vert as well) were slighly more bumpy than my non Z51 Vettes.

It really does get funnier every time you say that "bumpy" is the only difference.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

There is no way that even at 10 mph over the limit, you can feel the benefits of a sport suspension.

False. It's that simple. False. YOU can't. For whatever reason you seem completely incapable of understanding that others very much can.

The problem that you have is somehow not understanding just how ignorant you really are on the subject.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

As I said, I had many Vettes.. The difference I could notice is that it was less comfortable at the highway. Speed limits are set so that even the worst handling cars can drive safe at that speed.

What makes you think that owning them somehow makes you an expert? Similar to you and cars, I own a Rolex. I don't know shit about watches.

As usual, thanks for the laugh. It's actually fairly incredible to see someone continuously speak with such confidence about a subject about which they are so hopelessly ignorant.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, you think that you can reach maximum lateral acceleration without going to the race track OR driving at criminal speeds (in Florida, 20+ mph over is criminal with mandatory court appearance). You won't get anywhere close to that unless you drive well over the speed limit.

Who the shit said anything about "reaching maximum lateral acceleration"? I've said quite the opposite. Despite it being the only thing you reference, I've said that "maximum lateral acceleration" is a largely irrelevant number on a stat sheet. Your reading comprehension skills are on par with a dyslexic poodle.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Because all that matters if you drive close to the speed limit

Never said it did.

I said your dense brain would explode if anybody ever tried to explain it to you. Speaking of canines, my dog has a better chance of learning advanced differential equations than you do of understanding even the most basic concepts of suspension and handling.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

My god you are dense. If that is really your takeaway from what I said...



And as I have said many times, no, that's apparently all that YOU can feel...

If you are so oblivious that you can't tell the difference between the handling of a Corvette, Ferrari, an SUV, or whatever without being at "the limit" there is absolutely nothing left to say. I've explained it multiple times. I refuse to believe that you are actually serious. Even my wife came home the other day and said something was different in the Audi. It didn't drive as well. The difference? It was set to "comfort" instead of "sport". My wife can figure it out in a car that she rarely drives on a trip to the grocery store when she's not even trying. Hell, my 7 year old kid can not only feel differences in handling during test sessions without ever being close to the limit in his karts but also communicate what those differences are. I went too far and dialed too much caster into a kart last season. He came in after the out lap, after 1 50% lap, and said it was rotating too quickly on entry. He was right. That was nowhere even in the vicinity of "the limit". That wasn't even in the realm of maximum lateral acceleration and he could feel the difference in handling. Now I'm going to say it again... he's 7.

You don't have to be at "the limit". I don't know how many times that needs to be said before you manage to understand it.

Or, option B, you could just say that he difference is "bumpy". Holy shit.



It really does get funnier every time you say that "bumpy" is the only difference.



False. It's that simple. False. YOU can't. For whatever reason you seem completely incapable of understanding that others very much can.

The problem that you have is somehow not understanding just how ignorant you really are on the subject.



What makes you think that owning them somehow makes you an expert? Similar to you and cars, I own a Rolex. I don't know shit about watches.

As usual, thanks for the laugh. It's actually fairly incredible to see someone continuously speak with such confidence about a subject about which they are so hopelessly ignorant.

You just refuse to understand my point. People don't buy the Hellcat version of the Durango because of appearance or suspension. They buy it for the performance. The Model X Long Range and X PLAID are identical except for carbon fiber vs. wood trim and performance. If there isn't a group of buyers who buys SUvs/CUV's for their performance, why do they offer a performance version?

[lrobe22]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You just refuse to understand my point. People don't buy the Hellcat version of the Durango because of appearance or suspension. They buy it for the performance. The Model X Long Range and X PLAID are identical except for carbon fiber vs. wood trim and performance. If there isn't a group of buyers who buys SUvs/CUV's for their performance, why do they offer a performance version?

Suspension is a pillar of the performance package. (except for chevy logic)

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You just refuse to understand my point. People don't buy the Hellcat version of the Durango because of appearance or suspension. They buy it for the performance.

Using that logic one must assume that no one buys a corvette for the appearance.