what is Romneys stance on Gay marriage/dont ask dont tell?

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by RED-85-Z51

But I say again, if people want to be gay, im not opposed to it, I cant stop it...its their choice to do so.

Being gay isn't a choice. Are you sexually attracted to men? Could you maintain an erection with another man?

If you realize there is no way for you to do that, then you will understand it is not a choice. If however you think you may be aroused, then perhaps you need to reassess your sexual identity.

But demanding marriage rights, demanding spousal rights, and so on. When marriage is a religious process defined as being between a man and a woman, I think it is pretty cut and dry..that gays do not qualify. So they went to the civil union, but want to consider it the same as marriage...and get benefits.

And states should not be allowed to redefine "marriage"...its like letting a Politician redefine what qualifies a duck as a duck, and a mule as a mule, to satisfy his constituents. You cant just go around defying definitions of terms, because it pisses someone off, you cant go around tayloring laws for minority groups, trying to please everyone, because all you end up doing is pissing everyone off.

Gay people are not asking for special rights, they are asking for equal rights. They contribute to society as straight people do, all they want is the same rights as everyone else.

And they are going to get them. You will find that you are on the wrong side of history.

[RED-85-Z51]

Originally Posted by zz4vetteguy

Ok, but that argument can be used for ANY group gathering...Kind of like Cruise-In at the NCM, it is open all year long, there is (or I should say was) no reason for all those people to show up and hang out in parking lots for that one particular weekend.

BTW, on a side note, as someone who used to work for the toursim department or a resort city...those people who storm the beachs are renting hotel rooms, eating out, buying things...ie spending money and helping out your area's economy

Is there gross man on man action at cruise in? Wait, exclude the times tht Corvette4Life attended...

But really, all bowling green has is the Museum and the plant, bowling green is corvette capital USA....so having a bunch of corvette enthusiasts is common.

Thankfully Pensacola isnt Homo-Central, so its not normal to drive up on the beach and be surrounded by rainbow flags and general gayness. Its widely accepted that come memorial day weekend, the residents of Pensacola have to go to some other beach, elsewhere...

[RED-85-Z51]

im good with equal womens rights, I think women should have every opportunity that a man would...and should not be handicapped or anything, simply for being a woman.

im all for equal black rights, I think that no black person should be singled out simply due ot their skin color or because they dont know who their daddy is...

So now we have given equal rights to blacks, women, asians, asian black women...the color of ones skin, nor the lack of a penis..will keep a person down.

So empployment, travel, lending, housing, etc....no discrimination.

Now, take a gay black woman, she can get hired anywhere as long as she qualifies, she can get a loan anywhere she qualifies, she can shopw anywhere she likes....FREEDOM.

But the fact is, she wants to get marries...well thats great, Marriage is a HOly union between a man and a woman. Well, she dont qualify, as she wants to marry a woman...

Thats called "tough shit"...because you dont always get what you want, and she not entitled to it.

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by TxAg

One could argue you are desensitized to it and therefore are not as aware of it.

I was born and raised in the Midwest, then lived in the red state of Arizona after that. I've lived in California for about 6 years. I hardly think I'm desensitized.

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by TxAg

Get the gov't out of our lives as much as possible.

This.

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by RED-85-Z51

But the fact is, she wants to get marries...well thats great, Marriage is a HOly union between a man and a woman. Well, she dont qualify, as she wants to marry a woman...

Thats called "tough shit"...because you dont always get what you want, and she not entitled to it.

Bullshit.

I don't believe in god and can get married. Marriage is a property contract recognized by the state. Its nothing more. If you chose to give it religious overtones, then that is your doing.

The religious element is only a recent development. Christians considered marriage a private matter outside of the church. In fact, the church did not make it a religious matter until 1563 at the Council of Trent.

Marriage in Modern Europe and America

The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century rejected the prevailing concept of marriage along with many other Catholic doctrines. Martin Luther declared marriage to be "a worldly thing . . . that belongs to the realm of government", and a similar opinion was expressed by Calvin. The English Puritans in the 17th century even passed an Act of Parliament asserting "marriage to be no sacrament" and soon thereafter made marriage purely secular. It was no longer to be performed by a minister, but by a justice of the peace. The Restoration abolished this law and reverted to the old system, but the Puritans brought their concept of marriage to America where it survived. Luther and other Protestants also reduced the number of marriage impediments. Affinity and spiritual affinity were no longer considered obstacles, and consanguinity was interpreted much more narrowly than before. Thus, even marriages between first cousins became possible.

The Catholic church, in response to the Protestant challenge, took its stand in the Council of Trent and, in 1563, confirmed its previous doctrines. Indeed, it now demanded that all marriages take place before a priest and two witnesses. Among other things, this virtually eliminated not only secret marriages, but also the formerly common informal marriages. These, similar to the old Roman marriages by usus, were based simply on mutual consent without formal ceremony. In England they came to be called "common law marriages", and since Henry VIII had broken with Rome, they continued to be permitted until 1753, when the Church of England was put in charge of all marriages (including those of Catholics, but excluding those of Quakers and Jews). This development did not affect the English colonies, however, and thus common law marriages remained possible in America. (As recently as 1970 they were still recognized in several states.)

In most of Europe marriages continued to require a religious ceremony until the French Revolution in 1792 introduced the compulsory civil marriage. Germany followed suit in the 19th century when Bismarck diminished the influence of the Catholic church. Eventually, marriage before some magistrate or government official became the only valid form of marriage in most of the Western world. Religious weddings were still permitted, but only after the civil ceremony had taken place.

Another contested issue was that of divorce. In opposition to Catholic doctrine, the Protestant Reformers did not believe that marriage was insoluble, but favored divorce under special circumstances. The Puritan John Milton in his Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce (1643) even advocated self-divorce without the involvement of either church or government. For him, marriage rested entirely on the full compatibility of both partners. Where mutual love was lacking, marriage was a sham and had to be dissolved. However, this philosophy was too far ahead of its time. The English Parliament began to grant some divorces, but the procedure was so cumbersome and expensive that few couples could take advantage of it.


History of Marriage in Western Civilization

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by TxAg

More than many people I would say you are.

Not saying that's a good or bad thing at all.

Just a different POV.


Honestly, I wish the extreme POV on both sides of this issue would get less "face time" so a real compromise could be reached. Just my opinion.

I notice anyone acting inappropriately in public, whether they are gay or hetero couples. Overt sexual behavior is overt sexual behavior...no matter who commits it.

Does holding hands offend me? No. Does a quick kiss offend me? No. Doesn't matter if they're straight or gay...these are just simple signs of affection, in my eyes.

If that makes me desensitized, so be it. But I felt this way long before I came to SoCal and way before my daughter came out, so those are not even contributing factors to my stance.

[Craig]

Ms. NEED-A VETTE & Mr. zz4vetteguy, I understand and respect your position on legalizing gay marriage; can you understand and respect the position that asking Christians to accept a position that puts us at odds with our government and God's Word is not a position we want to be put in? Which is what "legalized gay marriage" does to us. This is not a troll post, this is the real issue, I'd love a reasoned response, this has been a good and useful dialog so far.

(I'll read it in the morning, I'm off to bed).

[73sbVert]

Honestly, who gives a feck?

With all the other bullshit going on, the country's economy being driven down the drain, being attacked on sovereign soil, etc., and THIS is your worry??



I tell ya, this is one of the LAST things I'm concerned about, doesn't even make the bottom of my Give-A-Shit list.

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by Craig

Ms. NEED-A VETTE & Mr. zz4vetteguy, I understand and respect your position on legalizing gay marriage; can you understand and respect the position that asking Christians to accept a position that puts us at odds with our government and God's Word is not a position we want to be put in? Which is what "legalized gay marriage" does to us. This is not a troll post, this is the real issue, I'd love a reasoned response, this has been a good and useful dialog so far.

(I'll read it in the morning, I'm off to bed).

Where in my post did I say I wanted DOMA changed? I'm fine with domestic partnerships or civil unions, provided it gives my daughter the right to do things such as put her partner under her health insurance (as an example).

I don't care what it's called. And, quite frankly, neither does my daughter. But I have raised her to understand that you give a little and you take a little...find some common ground. She's well aware that the uncompromising people within the gay community are only making it tougher on themselves.

Right now, my daughter is thankful that the Air Force will recognize their domestic partnership, once it's filed. At least they won't have to hide or be constantly living in fear of being spotted. Granted, they aren't given the same rights as an opposite sex couple: Andrea cannot be added to her insurance, nor will they be granted separation pay while she's deployed. But they're happy in that they can live their life as a couple, rather than hide it. They're not looking to flaunt it or rub it in anyone's faces. I don't even think that any of her coworkers even really know. It's just not a discussion she has in her workplace.

I'll give you another example. I have a lesbian friend that just celebrated 18 years with her partner yesterday. They filed their domestic partnership together here in California about 12 years ago.

One side of the family is supportive, the other is not. If something tragic were to happen, the disapproving family could do things such as keep my friend from the hospital, funeral, etc. It's ridiculous.

Could you even imagine spending your life with the person you loved, only to be discarded like nothing more than a stranger or intruder in the end?

They've built a life together. Without their union being filed with the state, things like savings, life insurance and everything else could be sought out by the family. Even is there was a will, the family could drag things out in court for years without that union having been filed.

Call it whatever you'd like. Most people only use the word marriage because marriage gives couples certain protections. Most gay couples are simply looking for those same protections, regardless of what it's called.

FWIW, I'm also a Christian. Raised catholic, parochial schools...the whole 9 yards. I converted and became Lutheran about 17 years ago. My daughter was raised Lutheran and believes that her salvation is through Jesus Christ.

I happen to believe that she'll be welcomed with open arms when her time comes. Others believe that she won't...and I understand this. It's not my place to judge. (I'm not what you'd call an overly religious person, I know what I believe and I respect other's beliefs. I only mention it because it is possible for a Christian to have their beliefs, while still allowing for compromises when it comes to the LGBT community. The extremists on both sides are making it an issue bigger than it needs to be.)

Originally Posted by 73sbVert

Honestly, who gives a feck?

With all the other bullshit going on, the country's economy being driven down the drain, being attacked on sovereign soil, etc., and THIS is your worry??



I tell ya, this is one of the LAST things I'm concerned about, doesn't even make the bottom of my Give-A-Shit list.

Indeed.

Funny thing is, my daughter will be voting for Romney. She knows damn well that Obama isn't going to touch DOMA and that his recent support of gay marriage is just lip service. On the flip side, despite alarmist cries, Romney is not going to make a single move in changing things like Roe v. Wade. Nor is he going to bring back DADT.

Like me, she's voting based on fiscal issues, including the sustainability of her own job in the military.

Btw, you'll get to meet both Caitlin and Andrea when you meet us for dinner on the 10th.

[73sbVert]

Originally Posted by NEED-A-VETTE

Funny thing is, my daughter will be voting for Romney. She knows damn well that Obama isn't going to touch DOMA and that his recent support of gay marriage is just lip service. On the flip side, despite alarmist cries, Romney is not going to make a single move in changing Roe v. Wade. Nor is he going to being back DADT.

Good for her!!

Like me, she's voting based on fiscal issues, including the sustainability of her own job in the military.

Awesome!!

Btw, you'll get to meet both Caitlin and Andrea when you meet us for dinner on the 10th.


Again, AWESOME!!! Looking forward to meeting all y'all, finally!!

Woohoo! Not long now! Did you see/check out the places I sent you?

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by TxAg

I was thinking more the "flamboyant" stuff. Which I agree the vast majority of homosexuals don't really do.

Indeed. Unfortunately, as with anything else, they tend to be the most noticeable.

No different from the rest of America thinking that tornadoes only hit trailer parks because, despite a hundred "normal" people standing around, they'll always find that one raging idiot to interview.

It's the outrageous and outlandish behavior of some people that stands out, but that doesn't mean it defines the norm.

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by 73sbVert

Woohoo! Not long now! Did you see/check out the places I sent you?

I haven't seen it, yet. Did you send it via email or FB?

[73sbVert]

Emailed you.

Specifically the El Guero Canelo looks like what you wanted for a local, good, taco shop?
My friend (retired Sheriff Deputy) recommends it highly, amongst LOTS of locals too!

Also the Sir Veza's Taco Garage is a great local place too, very car/hot rod oriented.

You have my # right? Use it!

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by TxAg

Next thing you'll tell me is the tooth fairy isn't real.

The tooth fairy is totally legit. You're safe.

Originally Posted by 73sbVert

Emailed you.

Specifically the El Guero Canelo looks like what you wanted for a local, good, taco shop?
My friend (retired Sheriff Deputy) recommends it highly, amongst LOTS of locals too!

Also the Sir Veza's Taco Garage is a great local place too, very car/hot rod oriented.

You have my # right? Use it!

Does El Guero Canelo come with lots of cute Sheriff's deputies? If so, I'm there.

Yeah...I've got your number. I'm not so good at phone calls. I'm more of a texting kinda gal.

[73sbVert]

Originally Posted by NEED-A-VETTE

The tooth fairy is totally legit. You're safe.



Does El Guero Canelo come with lots of cute Sheriff's deputies? If so, I'm there.

Dunno! I'll have my fingers crossed for you though!


Yeah...I've got your number. I'm not so good at phone calls. I'm more of a texting kinda gal.

That'll work too!

[NEED-A-VETTE]

Originally Posted by 73sbVert

That'll work too!

El Guero Canelo will probably be our lunch spot. LEOs definitely know where the good food is.

Checked for your email. Nothing.

PEBCAK error.

[zz4vetteguy]

Originally Posted by TxAg

Ok so let's say it's as you say.

Why push for MARRIAGE?

If you could get every legal benefit/detriment that comes along with a "marriage" then why not take it? (and I don't mean you specifically, but you in the general sense).

Like I've said, the federal government needs to get out of the "marriage" business. Hands off.

Heck the only reason they are in the muddy waters now is for one reason: money.

Take the money aspect away and then what is there? Not a dang thing, IMHO. And both camps will end up winning.

At that point a gay couple goes to a church who will marry them. Congrats and enjoy because it's all symbolic at that point.

As I mentioned, I could really car what it was called personally, and not even really care about stupid little stuff like tax credits and such that a lot of people bitch about, but the right to be able to care for my partner or make important decisions incase he is hurt/sick...or depending on the situation, even the right to see him...

Originally Posted by Craig

Ms. NEED-A VETTE & Mr. zz4vetteguy, I understand and respect your position on legalizing gay marriage; can you understand and respect the position that asking Christians to accept a position that puts us at odds with our government and God's Word is not a position we want to be put in? Which is what "legalized gay marriage" does to us. This is not a troll post, this is the real issue, I'd love a reasoned response, this has been a good and useful dialog so far.

(I'll read it in the morning, I'm off to bed).

And this is the point where an HONEST stale-mate comes to, from your other posts I know you are a devout Christian and have strong beliefs, and I take people like you who give that argument very much validity, and respect your views. The people on the other side of the spectrum that are againt it saying the same reasons, yet then turn around and claim to be athiest, or agnostic, those are the people I have issues with.

As I mentioned before, to me (I don't speak for everyone), I could care less what it is called. I use marriage as a generic term for two things being joined together, kinda like if I am drinking a soda I will just generically call it a Coke...now I know a Diet Wild Cerry Pepsi, and a Coke are two completely different things, but still I just say I am drinking a Coke...

I know, shame on me for making sense, but it would be nice if both sides could just sit down and talk it over like adults and come up with a fair comprimise on both sides, but instead it is the majority of both sides that are screaming and yelling and acting like children and making the whole process harder then it needs to be.

[zz4vetteguy]

Craig, as I said, I respect you opion and outlook on the situation (more then some others here) but just to play devils advocate, let me ask your opinion on the the subject I brought up earlier.

I believe that the people who are claiming that Marriage is a religious union, and whole heartedly feel that, beleive that, and live by that are a minority of the people using that "excuse" (I am using that word lightly with lack of a better word at 3am). How is it supposed to be taken seriously that it is a religious union when straight couples who are athiests are married, or people don't want God or religion mentioned at all in their ceromony, they are married by Elvis, or in a Drive thru, a donut shop by a baker who was ordained over the internet, or the Grim Reaper (seriously...no chit, I was watching a show on the Travel Channel about extreme weddings, and one chappel you can get married by the Grim Reaper), or people like Celeberties who are married 17 times, or people who get married and then file for divorce hours later.

[NEED-A-VETTE]

I think the biggest issue here is that most of what the American public sees are the extreme activists on both sides: the LGBT community and the religious community. This is what is flashed across the television in catchy, grab your attention, 30 second sound bites.

However, when you really get down to it, you take my daughter and ZZ4...and really hear them speak and they make sense. They're concise and rational. This is the way I hear all my gay and lesbian friends speak. They're not the activists that you see on television that are pushing for all or nothing.