The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

And yet only 17 states charge EV owners, with the highest being $200, and most $100 or less. So, not only does the fed gov subsidize EVs, every driver subsidizes EVs.

Is that EV owners fault? As a EV owner, I fully support EVs paying an annual fee to pay for road taxes as long as it is a fair amount.

[Mick]

Do you pull this stuff completely out of your ass?

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Most people go on maybe 1 or 2 road trips per year.

That depends on how you define "road trip". My kids live in the Boston area, and we head up there for a weekend several times per year. Add in vacations and our annual trip to FLA, and we probably do 10 road trips or more every year. Among my friends, we aren't at all unusual.

The average distance driven per day os 40 miles.

Link? Even with all the road tripping we do, I put about 8,000 miles on my Explorer per year. How is someone putting nearly 15,000 per year on their car WITHOUT road tripping?

I'm sure your huge SUV is a lot more than $43k new.

My Explorer was $42,700 when I bought it new.

Model Y was the world's best selling car and there is a reason. No, EVs are not for everyone yet but they work for most. As daily commuter, it's so much less hassle as you never have to charge outside of your house for 360 of 365 days of the year.
How is the world's best selling car an EV?

Car & Driver magazine does not agree with this.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g4...ing-cars-2023/

The more of this made up bullshit you post, the lower your credibility sinks. You'll be in the negatives soon, if you aren't already.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Mick

Link? Even with all the road tripping we do, I put about 8,000 miles on my Explorer per year. How is someone putting nearly 15,000 per year on their car WITHOUT road tripping?

We went down this path once before. He is completely incapable of understanding what the word “average” means and somehow manages to twist it in his mind to say that the number means that people don't drive more than 40 miles per day... thus an EV is a perfect choice.

It’s fairly amusing.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

If you look at vehicles in the same performance class, many EVs are cheaper than gas cars.
What AWD 400 HP SUV/CUV with like 76 cubic feet of cargo room (almost 80 with frunk) and great legroom/passenger space can you get for $43k ($35k after tax credit)?

Performance is always your go to and most who buy a SUV don't GAF. And the tesla that you call an SUV is really just a car by a man's standard for an SUV.

But since you went there...
You want to compare the 150K cyber truck to a 100K 3/4 or one ton HD diesel truck? (you can actually buy a HD diesel truck for about 60K if you go with a lower trim level).
50 thousand dollars buys a whole lot of fuel and oil changes.
BTW, that EV truck (any EV truck) will not "perform" truck duties like the HD ICE truck.

[ricks327]

You have to understand that GSC3 is the ultimate EV Kool Aide slurper. He is addicted to it, saw the same thing when he was over at the other place.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The only percentage I talked about is the percent of people that EVs would work just fine. I'm sure that the percent of high performance SUV buyers is small, mostly because the vast majority can't afford them. I spent over 2 decades on the CF and a large number of people performance modded their Vettes. Is it because they don't care for the extra HP?

A few people have "modded" Corvettes? What in the hell are you even arguing? The number of people who give a shit about how much horsepower a car has is miniscule.

You do realize that is different than saying that there are NONE, right?

And if you think that the reason that people don't buy the higher horsepower versions is because they can't afford them, you are an absolute clown. Approximately 8%-10% of Mercedes vehicles sold in the US are AMG from year to year. Your argument is really that the other 90%+ people buying Mercedes can't afford them? Well over half of Audi A6 sold are either Premium Plus or Prestige models while only 2% opt for the "S" performance package at very close to the same price. Why is that? Your argument is that they can't afford it? The People buying $110k Escalade platinum can't afford the V... or maybe is it people that care about things other than horsepower and how fast their SUV is in a 1/4 mile.

50% of people buying the A6 opt for a higher end luxury package. Personally, I wanted both... the Platinum S6. I like the way the S looks. I like the way it rides. The interior is top notch. The headlights are a work of art. Every part of it is well crafted. It handles better than any sedan I have ever been in. The brakes are absolutely phenomenal... and yes, I realize that you are completely incapable of understanding that you can tell that outside of driving at the limits of the car on a road course. The horsepower is a bonus, not the reason. I don't know, nor do I give even the slightest amount of a shit how fast it is in the 1/4 mile. I could not possibly care less that some hideous plastic bubble looking thing is faster. It's not a race car. It's a family sedan that happens to be fun to drive, has enough power to do anything I want to do on the street, and in my opinion looks better than most others out there. Your argument that the only criteria that people use if they want a "sport" version of something is to look at the horsepower (because that's the only thing you seem to be able to understand) is absolutely beyond ignorant and simple minded.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by LATB

Performance is always your go to and most who buy a SUV don't GAF. And the tesla that you call an SUV is really just a car by a man's standard for an SUV.

But since you went there...
You want to compare the 150K cyber truck to a 100K 3/4 or one ton HD diesel truck? (you can actually buy a HD diesel truck for about 60K if you go with a lower trim level).
50 thousand dollars buys a whole lot of fuel and oil changes.
BTW, that EV truck (any EV truck) will not "perform" truck duties like the HD ICE truck.

Anybody who thinks that the Cyber"truck" is even remotely in the discussion alongside any of the HD trucks made in the last decade when it comes to capabilities as a truck is an absolute idiot.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

How is the world's best selling car an EV?

There were 15.5 million new vehicles sold in the US last year. Even believing Tesla's unconfirmed and most likely inflated numbers, Tesla made up approximately 3% of that number. Even with a tax credit and every other thing thrown at them, EVs made up less than 8% of total new vehicle sales across all brands.

An individual model is "the top selling" because unlike ICE vehicles with a multitude of options, manufacturers, and models splitting the market, you have less than a handful of options if you want an EV. It's really not that complicated.

Still waiting on you to acknowledge the US numbers as opposed to celebrating what Tesla did in China.

[MadInNc]

I want to convert my 73 Eldo to an EV. Drive it less than 1k per year. Cost of batteries, charging etc. cost prohibited after conversion

Cost today an oil change and Maintenance check annually or every two years

[GTOguy]

Seems that Tesla's like to panic stop on their own and cause great bodily harm and mayhem.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

The plan is to totally eliminate new ICE sales in the next 9 years.

IOW you can't find any government that is currently forcing people to buy EVs. Which means that people buying EVs now are doing so because they want to, not because they are being forced to.

Once again you have no actual argument, just your own paranoid fantasies and blind hatred.

Laughably, the screenshot you provided as "proof" clearly states that the federal government is actively working against the proposed California mandate. Stop behaving as if it's a done deal that has already taken effect.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by ricks327

Link to those (many)states

Unlike some people around here who post bullshit and are unable to back up their statements with proof, I'm more than happy to provide a link to the facts:

https://www.myev.com/research/intere...ectric-vehicle

California: $100 annual fee for a zero-emissions vehicle. Starting in January 2021, annual increases will be indexed to the consumer price index.

Colorado: $50 annual fee for full-electric and plug-in hybrid (PHEV) vehicles.

Georgia: $200 annual license fee for “noncommercial alternative fueled vehicles,” including EVs, but not PHEVs (unless the owner requests an alt-fuel license plate). The fee is automatically adjusted on an annual basis.

Idaho: $140 annual fee for EVs; it’s $75 for PHEVs.

Illinois: $100 annual fee for EVs beginning July 1, 2019.

Indiana: $150 annual fee for EVs; it’s $50 for hybrids and PHEVs.

Michigan: $135 annual fee for non-hybrid electric vehicles weighing less than 8,000 pounds; it’s $235 for those weighing more than 8,000 pounds. The state charges hybrid owners an extra $47.50 and PHEV drivers an added $117.50. These fees are indexed to the state gas tax and would rise incrementally if it is increased.

Minnesota: $75 annual fee on EVs.

Mississippi: $150 fee on EVs and a $75 fee on hybrids. Beginning July 1, 2021, these fees will be indexed to the inflation rate.

Missouri: $75 annual fee on EVs, and $37.50 on PHEVs.

Nebraska: $75 annual fee on alternative-fuel vehicles, including EVs.

North Carolina: $130 on plug-in vehicles, including EVs.

Oregon: $110 annual fee on PHEVs beginning on January 1, 2020.

South Carolina: $120 biennial fee for EVs; it’s a $60 biennial fee for hybrids.

Tennessee: $100 annual fee for EVs.

Utah: $60 annual fee for EVs; it increases to $90 in 2020 and $120 in 2021. Hybrids are assessed a $10 fee that rises to $15 in 2020 and $20 in 2021. It’s currently a $26 annual fee for PHEVs that jumps to $39 in 2020 and $52 in 2021. In 2022 increases will be indexed to the consumer price index.

Virginia: $64 annual license for EVs.

Washington: $150 annual fee for EVs.

Wisconsin: $100 annual fee for EVs.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Average car gets like 30 mpg. Average driver drives 14260 miles per year.
That's 475 gallons per year. Average states gas tax is 30 cents per gallon. So, that's $142 per year in gas tax. So, EVs should be charged that.
Federal gas tax is .183 per gallon. So, additional $86 for EV drivers. $228 total for state and federal is fair.

Ah, but as the Haters here love to point out, EVs are "useless for road trips," so the typical EV is probably going to drive a lot fewer miles per year than average. Wifie's Bolt is 4 years old and has maybe 20,000 miles on it - well under 5000 miles per year. In your scenario a person driving 5000 miles per year in a 30 MPG ICE car would only pay $80 in gasoline taxes. EV drivers who only drive around town on errands are getting screwed.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Ah, but as the Haters here love to point out, EVs are "useless for road trips,"

Just more of you putting words in peoples' mouths. I don't remember anyone saying an EVs are "useless" for road trips. Please link to where multiple people have done so, along with proof that those people are "EV haters".

The reality is that those who are not drinking the EV Kool-Ade regularly point out that road tripping in an EV takes hours longer than the same trip taken in an ICE vehicle. Even GS has admitted that on his 900 something mile trip he takes from time to time, it takes him 2 hours longer than it would take me because of stopping to charge. He says it takes the same amount of time for HIM in an ICE, because he eats 4-5 "warm meals" on such a trip regardless of what kind of vehicle his is using.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by Mick

Just more of you putting words in peoples' mouths. I don't remember anyone saying an EVs are "useless" for road trips.

Play whatever UD-esque semantic games you like; common sense suggests that EVs are less useful than ICE vehicles for long road trips, and will most likely be driven fewer miles per year as a result.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...mileage-study/

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Ah, but as the Haters here love to point out, EVs are "useless for road trips,"

Useless? No. They are of course far less capable and add a significant amount of time, hassle, and planning vs. an ICE vehicle to a road trip... unless you have no desire to get where you are going in a reasonable amount of time, like to be limited to certain hotels, certain routes, and want to stop for an hour to get a "hot meal" (but only at places with chargers) every couple of hours. In that case, they're just fine.

The Cyber"truck" however, is absolutely useless to anybody who actually wants to use it as a truck. My Escalade is actually a better TRUCK than that hideous piece of shit.

There isn't "hate". I couldn't care less what someone wants to drive. If an EV works for you, great. My only argument is against the absolutely absurd arguments that keep being made as to why they are so much better than anything else. Even that is simply being bored and for the amusement of seeing what stupid shit comes next. Reality is, I couldn't care less, even though I am hugely opposed to the .gov artificially manipulating the market as they are doing. That applies in all cases, all products, whether it's something I like or not. The market should decide. Not the .gov.

If an EV comes along that actually does what I need it to do, great. So far that hasn't happened. The closest to that would be the eHummer to replace the Escalade for the wife's daily driver which would mean using the truck exclusively for all karting trips. Currently I use the Escalade for the shorter trips and the truck when I need the bigger trailer or multiple karts.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Play whatever UD-esque semantic games you like; common sense suggests that EVs are less useful than ICE vehicles for long road trips, and will most likely be driven fewer miles per year as a result.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...mileage-study/

Hypocrisy at it's most obvious! Anyone making a claim you don't like has to go to the nth degree to PROVE their point. You get called out on something, and fall back on "common sense". Who is the UD arguer here? I'd say you!

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Mick

How is someone putting nearly 15,000 per year on their car WITHOUT road tripping?

I guess it depends where you live….its VERY easy to do I’m Central FL. Major metros like DFW, Houston, Atlanta where commenting is common from the suburbs, it’s common.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Mick

Do you pull this stuff completely out of your ass?



That depends on how you define "road trip". My kids live in the Boston area, and we head up there for a weekend several times per year. Add in vacations and our annual trip to FLA, and we probably do 10 road trips or more every year. Among my friends, we aren't at all unusual.



Link? Even with all the road tripping we do, I put about 8,000 miles on my Explorer per year. How is someone putting nearly 15,000 per year on their car WITHOUT road tripping?



My Explorer was $42,700 when I bought it new.



Car & Driver magazine does not agree with this.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g4...ing-cars-2023/

The more of this made up bullshit you post, the lower your credibility sinks. You'll be in the negatives soon, if you aren't already.

https://www.thezebra.com/resources/d...iven-per-year/

Maybe you should read my post before responding. I was talking about the WORLD's best selling car and it was the Model Y

https://www.motor1.com/news/706258/t...%20in%20volume.

You posted up the US only where it came in #2 (not counting pickup trucks)

As for road trips, I'd consider anything over 250 miles in a day to be a road trip. I go like once or twice a year to Fort Lauderdale/Miami which is like 220 miles each way, so, 450 to 500 miles total, depending how much we drive there. We usually go on a long road trip once a year from Central Florida to South Texas (2800 mile round trip). That's about it.. That accounts for maybe 3 - 4 days out of 365 days that I need more a full charge in a day.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

https://www.thezebra.com/resources/d...iven-per-year/

Maybe you should read my post before responding. I was talking about the WORLD's best selling car and it was the Model Y

https://www.motor1.com/news/706258/t...%20in%20volume.

You posted up the US only where it came in #2 (not counting pickup trucks)

As for road trips, I'd consider anything over 250 miles in a day to be a road trip. I go like once or twice a year to Fort Lauderdale/Miami which is like 220 miles each way, so, 450 to 500 miles total, depending how much we drive there. We usually go on a long road trip once a year from Central Florida to South Texas (2800 mile round trip). That's about it.. That accounts for maybe 3 - 4 days out of 365 days that I need more a full charge in a day.

I knew you would come back with some bullshit. Yeah, if we exclude pick-up trucks AND SUV-type vehicles and anything else you don't like because more of them are sold than the Tesla, then of course you are right.