The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by ricks327

I won't own an EV and not anti-EV but they have to start paying extra for using the roads. Why should they get a free ride plus the freebies the feds give them?

They already are - EV owners in many states pay a surcharge on their vehicle registration in lieu of a gasoline tax. In fact, unless the EV is driven more than the average number of miles per year, some EV owners actually pay more than they would to drive the same number of miles in an ICE car.

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Name one government that is forcing anyone to buy an EV in 2024.

In CA this is happening already with commercial trucks and it is not panning out. The plan is to totally eliminate new ICE sales in the next 9 years. Which will make living here not feasible if we still need to eat and use energy to survive.

[GTOguy]

I never knew that the word 'require' means freedom of choice. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Varla.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Ahhhhh yes. So much savings. And how does depreciation of EVs compare to a comparable ICE vehicle? How about the cost of insurance over that same time period?

Teslas had one of the lowest depreciation on their main models of any brand. The price cuts due to the consequences of the COVID pandemic forced Tesla to cut prices. People buying at the current prices see extremely low depreciation. If it wasn't for the consequences of the pandemic and the failed govt response, Model 3 and Y would still have the lowest depreciation. The Feds insane rate hikes caused the price drops.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

I don't believe the maintenance angle holds much water in the debate. Because even including maintenance and fuel (gas/diesel) costs, the overall costs including purchase price is lower with an ICE vehicle vs an EV.

If you look at vehicles in the same performance class, many EVs are cheaper than gas cars.
What AWD 400 HP SUV/CUV with like 76 cubic feet of cargo room (almost 80 with frunk) and great legroom/passenger space can you get for $43k ($35k after tax credit)?

[ricks327]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

They already are - EV owners in many states pay a surcharge on their vehicle registration in lieu of a gasoline tax. In fact, unless the EV is driven more than the average number of miles per year, some EV owners actually pay more than they would to drive the same number of miles in an ICE car.

Link to those (many)states

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

If you look at vehicles in the same performance class, many EVs are cheaper than gas cars.
What AWD 400 HP SUV/CUV with like 76 cubic feet of cargo room (almost 80 with frunk) and great legroom/passenger space can you get for $43k ($35k after tax credit)?

Do you cut and paste this shit or do you retype it every time?

It doesn’t matter if it’s half the price. No matter how much you try to spin it, no matter how much you try to dismiss it. No matter how many stupid shit arguments you can make up, the cars are absolutely incapable of performing even the most basic tasks required of any person who lives outside of or ever travels outside of a single metropolitan area. The “truck”… well that’s even worse.

You want to add stupid qualifiers? Let's go.

I daily drive a 450hp car that goes 500+ miles between stops, looks good, drives great, handles incredibly well, and has excellent build quality, fit, finish, and materials.

I have a 420 horsepower AWD SUV that has 121 cubic feet of cargo room, can haul 6 people very comfortably (7 if need-be), and without any planning or difficulty at all, can tow a mid-size trailer from Ohio to Florida in 1 stop.

I have a diesel dually that puts out somewhere near 1,000 ft/lbs of torque... that can still go almost 700 miles on a tank at 80mph, and can tow almost 18,000 pounds... through the mountains, in freezing weather.

What EV at ANY price can do ANY of that?

[zeek]

Ford was building a mega site in Tennessee in the town I use to live in just for EV's. Damn, Id be a rich man if I still owned those 38 acres!

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

They already are - EV owners in many states pay a surcharge on their vehicle registration in lieu of a gasoline tax. In fact, unless the EV is driven more than the average number of miles per year, some EV owners actually pay more than they would to drive the same number of miles in an ICE car.

17 states charge EVs more. Most are $100 or less. The highest is $200. Yeah, that makes up for lost revenue from tax on gasoline.

[zeek]

Dont know what they gonna do with a mega site when they stop building EV's

[MadInNc]

.Whose GrandSport3’s Hero?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by MadInNc

.Whose GrandSport3’s Hero?

Too funny....

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Do you cut and paste this shit or do you retype it every time?

It doesn’t matter if it’s half the price. No matter how much you try to spin it, no matter how much you try to dismiss it. No matter how many stupid shit arguments you can make up, the cars are absolutely incapable of performing even the most basic tasks required of any person who lives outside of or ever travels outside of a single metropolitan area. The “truck”… well that’s even worse.

You want to add stupid qualifiers? Let's go.

I daily drive a 450hp car that goes 500+ miles between stops, looks good, drives great, handles incredibly well, and has excellent build quality, fit, finish, and materials.

I have a 420 horsepower AWD SUV that has 121 cubic feet of cargo room, can haul 6 people very comfortably (7 if need-be), and without any planning or difficulty at all, can tow a mid-size trailer from Ohio to Florida in 1 stop.

I have a diesel dually that puts out somewhere near 1,000 ft/lbs of torque... that can still go almost 700 miles on a tank at 80mph, and can tow almost 18,000 pounds... through the mountains, in freezing weather.

What EV at ANY price can do ANY of that?

Most people go on maybe 1 or 2 road trips per year. Many don't even do road trips. The average distance driven per day os 40 miles. I'm sure your huge SUV is a lot more than $43k new. Apples and oranges compare. Model Y was the world's best selling car and there is a reason. No, EVs are not for everyone yet but they work for most. As daily commuter, it's so much less hassle as you never have to charge outside of your house for 360 of 365 days of the year.
How is the world's best selling car an EV?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

17 states charge EVs more. Most are $100 or less. The highest is $200. Yeah, that makes up for lost revenue from tax on gasoline.

Average car gets like 30 mpg. Average driver drives 14260 miles per year.
That's 475 gallons per year. Average states gas tax is 30 cents per gallon. So, that's $142 per year in gas tax. So, EVs should be charged that.
Federal gas tax is .183 per gallon. So, additional $86 for EV drivers. $228 total for state and federal is fair.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Most people go on maybe 1 or 2 road trips per year. Many don't even do road trips. The average distance driven per day os 40 miles. I'm sure your huge SUV is a lot more than $43k new. Apples and oranges compare. Model Y was the world's best selling car and there is a reason. No, EVs are not for everyone yet but they work for most. As daily commuter, it's so much less hassle as you never have to charge outside of your house for 360 of 365 days of the year.
How is the world's best selling car an EV?

Which do you think is more common... people using an SUV to go on a trip > 300 miles or people who care about how much horsepower it has?

Your argument is constantly about horsepower and acceleration. The number of people who give even the slightest bit of a shit about how much their little SUV has is absolutely miniscule. Nobody f-ing cares how fast their RAV4 goes 0-60. The "Sport" SUV market is absolutely tiny compared to the lower HP versions.

What does $43,000 matter? The actual sad part is that at $43,000 you get something with the build quality of a 1992 Geo Metro. Your "six figure" appliance has been in the shop more in 2 years than mine have in a combined 250k miles. The point that you tried to deflect from was very simple. There is no EV at any price that can match the most basic capabilities of any of the cars in my garage. When there is, let me know.

I don't give a shit about "the World". Yes, there is a reason... 456,000 of them were sold in f**king China. What's your point? Very few cars are actually sold outside of a few markets. Now go take a look at sales in the US and tell me what matters here.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Which do you think is more common... people using an SUV to go on a trip > 300 miles or people who care about how much horsepower it has?

Your argument is constantly about horsepower. The number of people who give even the slightest bit of a shit about how much their little SUV has is absolutely miniscule.

There is no EV on the planet that has the basic capabilities of any of my 3 vehicles. When there is, let me know.

I don't give a shit about "the World". Yes, there is a reason... 456,000 of them number were sold in f**king China. What's your point? Very few cars are actually sold outside of a few markets. Now go take a look at sales in the US and tell me what matters here.

Why isn't GM or Ford selling that many cars in China if their product is so great? Different buyers for different products. For some people, all that matters is the price and they don't care how lame the car is. Others care about performance. Why would any car maker make a 350, 400, 500, 700 or even 1000 HP SUV if nobody cares? There is a buyer segment that cares. Not many EV options for bargain basement buyers who just need a transportation. Most Hellcat Durango buyers buy that version because of the performance and not other features.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Why isn't GM or Ford selling that many cars in China if their product is so great?

You've now reverted to sales in China as your argument?

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Different buyers for different products. For some people, all that matters is the price and they don't care how lame the car is. Others care about performance. Why would any car maker make a 350, 400, 500, 700 or even 1000 HP SUV if nobody cares?

I didn't say NOBODY. You have a severe reading comprehension problem.

Dodge sold 77,000 Durangos in 2023. Less than 3,000 were Hellcats. Since math is clearly not your thing, I'll help you out. That's less than 4%. Your focus on that 4% and complete inability to see the 96% that makes up the majority is absolutely astounding. Audi makes the A6 and S6. S6 production is ~2% of the A6. The trend holds for almost every "performance" version of a car. The people who give a shit about the horsepower number is an incredibly small percentage. You use it as the basis of your entire idiotic argument. What part of that exactly are you having difficulty understanding?

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

There is a buyer segment that cares. Not many EV options for bargain basement buyers who just need a transportation. Most Hellcat Durango buyers buy that version because of the performance and not other features.

Yes. There is indeed a buyer segment. About 4%. Now try to let that number sink in. 4%.

And the part that you still somehow have absolutely zero ability to understand is that a significant number of those people are buying them for reasons other than the actual performance. The appearance, the collectability, the novelty. A family friend has 1 sitting in a building with a dozen other cars including a handful of Vipers that he has no intention of driving. Why? Who f-n knows, but it's certainly not the performance. Your completely simple minded view that people buy them because of horsepower and nothing else is absolutely f-ing ignorant.

But hey, how about those Chinese sales numbers...

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Average car gets like 30 mpg. Average driver drives 14260 miles per year.
That's 475 gallons per year. Average states gas tax is 30 cents per gallon. So, that's $142 per year in gas tax. So, EVs should be charged that.
Federal gas tax is .183 per gallon. So, additional $86 for EV drivers. $228 total for state and federal is fair.

And yet only 17 states charge EV owners, with the highest being $200, and most $100 or less. So, not only does the fed gov subsidize EVs, every driver subsidizes EVs.

[MadInNc]

Instant Patina

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

You've now reverted to sales in China as your argument?



I didn't say NOBODY. You have a severe reading comprehension problem.

Dodge sold 77,000 Durangos in 2023. Less than 3,000 were Hellcats. Since math is clearly not your thing, I'll help you out. That's less than 4%. Your focus on that 4% and complete inability to see the 96% that makes up the majority is absolutely astounding. Audi makes the A6 and S6. S6 production is ~2% of the A6. The trend holds for almost every "performance" version of a car. The people who give a shit about the horsepower number is an incredibly small percentage. You use it as the basis of your entire idiotic argument. What part of that exactly are you having difficulty understanding?




Yes. There is indeed a buyer segment. About 4%. Now try to let that number sink in. 4%.

And the part that you still somehow have absolutely zero ability to understand is that a significant number of those people are buying them for reasons other than the actual performance. The appearance, the collectability, the novelty. A family friend has 1 sitting in a building with a dozen other cars including a handful of Vipers that he has no intention of driving. Why? Who f-n knows, but it's certainly not the performance. Your completely simple minded view that people buy them because of horsepower and nothing else is absolutely f-ing ignorant.

But hey, how about those Chinese sales numbers...

The only percentage I talked about is the percent of people that EVs would work just fine. I'm sure that the percent of high performance SUV buyers is small, mostly because the vast majority can't afford them. I spent over 2 decades on the CF and a large number of people performance modded their Vettes. Is it because they don't care for the extra HP?