Justify This....

[NB2K]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Yes, I would tend to agree with this.


This is true.


Probably. But I have a lot of friends who are in the same position as I am. Regardless, I tend to agree with your thoughts.


And people who didn't adapt with the times. It's NOT 1940 any longer.

I ran for office in my union. I lost. I was later told I wasn't "Union" enough. A lot of members viewed me as "Weak" leaning too much to the other side.

So it goes I guess.

Interesting.

I can see why you lost, but not for that reason.

You have the ability to see things from a business standpoint and unions, for the most part, don't want that.

Members are called "rank and file" for a reason.

Unions were at their heyday when their membership was poor and uneducated. Worker safety was BS and corporations didn't GAS about public image, b/c there was no mass communication.

None of those things are true anymore.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

I'll tell a quick story here. Typically, when working an eight hour day, morning break is at 9:30. So at 9:30, you shut down your welder and go have a cup of coffee, or in my case, the first gallon of Diet Coke.

If I'm in the middle of a root pass or hot pass on a pipe weld, I would continue working through break for a reason. If your metal is hot and you have a nice root going in, you finish that pass. Why risk a bad shot for a scheduled break? Makes NO sense.

I have had guys tell me "I'm breaking down conditions" with this practice. The way I see it, it's MY RT. If I get a bad shot? They pull my certs. No certs? No work. No work? No Cadillac in the garage.

I'm still technically a member of that union, but have moved on to an office job. I took an honorable withdrawal. (I know: Faggot ) I don't attend meetings any longer, nor do I vote.

But make no mistake. It all started with the training I got from my union. I learned everything I could about welding. And that turned into my current gig. I was very fortunate and I know it.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I'll tell a quick story here. Typically, when working an eight hour day, morning break is at 9:30. So at 9:30, you shut down your welder and go have a cup of coffee, or in my case, the first gallon of Diet Coke.

If I'm in the middle of a root pass or hot pass on a pipe weld, I would continue working through break for a reason. If your metal is hot and you have a nice root going in, you finish that pass. Why risk a bad shot for a scheduled break? Makes NO sense.

I have had guys tell me "I'm breaking down conditions" with this practice. The way I see it, it's MY RT. If I get a bad shot? They pull my certs. No certs? No work. No work? No Cadillac in the garage.

I'm still technically a member of that union, but have moved on to an office job. I took an honorable withdrawal. (I know: Faggot ) I don't attend meetings any longer, nor do I vote.

But make no mistake. It all started with the training I got from my union. I learned everything I could about welding. And that turned into my current gig. I was very fortunate and I know it.

Interesting, as that's the way my welder is, he is Boilermakers here in Jax, and so goes from power plant to paper mills to buildings doing same shit, welding pipe, he and I met in '97, over Pontiacs....I had a '70 Lemans convertible, he still has he nearly perfect '68 Goat coupe....he does all my welding, has a TIG in his garage, I told of the shit we built through they years, you wooden believe it anyway....

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Boilermakers welding pipe?!?!?

WTF Gene?!?! I'm turning that bastard in!

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Dude, I'll debate all night long. But you're typically so full of hate, it's not worth my while.

You know, you still failed to answer a very simple question.

You apparently have no problem calling my opinion "bullshit" or resorting to name calling on the internet but what exactly in my posts was even remotely hateful?





You show me what I said that was hateful and out of line and I will gladly apologize.


If not, feel free to admit that you were just deflecting from the simple point of the post, which was that contrary to your pro-union views, that "paltry 11%" actually does have a drastic impact on manufacturing costs in this country, especially the example that I gave of the auto industry.


There was a time when unions did good in this country. They improved work condidtions, safety, and many more things. Now, the simple truth is that unions exist because of greed and greed alone. Look at the Lockheed example posted by the OP. They are not striking because of unfair practices or unsafe working conditions. They are not striking because they are being forced to work 80 hour weeks in sweat shops.

They are striking because they want MONEY. Period.

By all means, feel free to try to dispute that. Or, you could just call me a name and throw in some sort of condescending shit for good measure. Either way works.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Thomas

WTF Gene?!?! I'm turning that bastard in!

Steamfitters?? anyway, they stick his silly ass inside some pipe and he sets there all damn day, welding around, root, fill, whatever passes, something about not being nukey rated....IF nukey plant construction picks up again, he will go take those certs....

and come home with a glowing personality....

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

There was a time when unions did good in this country. They improved work condidtions, safety, and many more things. Now, the simple truth is that unions exist because of greed and greed alone. Look at the Lockheed example posted by the OP. They are not striking because of unfair practices or unsafe working conditions. They are not striking because they are being forced to work 80 hour weeks in sweat shops.

They are striking because they want MONEY. Period.

Of the three long term union guys I have known for any time period....my oldest friend Ken, is Teamsters in Texas, Millers Brew...he not hard core one damn bit, he just enjoys working OT much as possible, because one week's take home is over 1200 bux...., Johnny the welder loves the OT also....time and half and double....takes home more than that....but his job means never same location twice for longer than maybe 8 months....3rd guy Fred, was a pressman's assistant at a large printing plant....printed McCalls Magazine before they went belly up, before LIFE mag yet..been a while, THAT was a interesting plant tour, years ago....so he went to the local Water company, on the shit side of the tube, then made it to freshwater/supply side....THAT was a interesting tour also....MAJOR shit stirrers.....

the one's I have a HUGE problem is the public sector, like teachers....course the stupidity they have to deal with in the 'legal' department exceeds common sense too, .....

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Originally Posted by mrvette

Steamfitters?? anyway, they stick his silly ass inside some pipe and he sets there all damn day, welding around, root, fill, whatever passes, something about not being nukey rated....IF nukey plant construction picks up again, he will go take those certs....

and come home with a glowing personality....

Yup. Steamfitters. Nuke cert's are just a welding test or three. They're a little more difficult, but a decent welder can sail through them.

[RetiredSFC 97]

I love these union threads. I gives me the opportunity to see the real fight in progress.

[NB2K]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

the lobbying unions are incredibly strong too though. Familiar with the Davis Bacon act? Basically itsays on all Federal Jobs contractors MUST pay union wages or better. Guess what?! The penalties are so stiff, many non-union contractors have just stopped bidding government work. It's a shame cause now it's costing everybody more money, and not just the 11%

I disagree.

Davis Bacon Act says we must pay prevailing wages.
I have generally found the charts to be quite low, especially for IT.
Also, with a stoke of a pen, the CO can make the procurement exempt from Davis Bacon.

Further, large contractors continue to aggressively pursue and win federal business.
It is virtually impossible for them to lose money, given that most large contracts are cost plus award fee.
There is no incentive for them to keep costs down, so they don't.

Cost plus award fee is the biggest POS ever fed to the American public.

[NB2K]

Originally Posted by RetiredSFC 97

I love these union threads. I gives me the opportunity to see the real fight in progress.

If it can be kept from denigrating into personal attacks, both sides can learn something.

I know I have.

[jda67gta]

Update:


Lockheed F-35 workers ready for long strike, union says


A F-35 fighter jet prepares for landing with its life fan cover deployed over Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Maryland in this undated handout image.
Credit: Reuters/Lockheed Martin/Handout

By Andrea Shalal-Esa
WASHINGTON | Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:28pm EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Unionized workers on strike against Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) over healthcare benefits and pensions are prepared for a long work stoppage, a top union official said on Tuesday as the company said it would be able to keep operations running.
Nearly 3,650 union workers walked off the job on Monday at the Fort Worth, Texas, plant where Lockheed builds the new F-35 fighter plane and at two military bases where it is tested.
Paul Black, president of the local chapter of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM), said three earlier strikes in 1984, 2000 and 2003 lasted from two to three weeks, and union leaders have warned workers the current dispute could take longer to settle.
"These are pretty big issues. It may take more than just a two- or three-week strike," Black said in a telephone interview. "We're prepared to endure for the duration."
Workers in the union voted overwhelmingly on Sunday to hit the picket line rather than accept the company's "best and final offer," which called for an end to the defined benefits pension that current workers receive and a switch to a retirement account similar to a 401(k).
Black said the pension issue was particularly important given union workers had already given up medical benefits for retired workers in the last contract negotiation.
"Whenever they talk about cuts, they want to talk about the guys at the lower end of the scale," he said, noting the top managers at Lockheed earned a combined total in the hundreds of millions of dollars. "It's not our membership that's driving up the cost of the plane."
The strike adds to pressures already facing the $397 billion F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, which has been restructured three times in recent years to rein in costs and slow development to allow for more testing. The program has only completed about 20 percent of the total testing required.
"The ball is their court now," Black told Reuters, referring to Lockheed management. "The members spoke loud and clear."
He said he doubted that Lockheed's salaried workers would be able to maintain production of the complex, stealthy warplanes without union employees for long, despite the company's statement that its operations remained open.
The union represents about 3,300 of the total 14,000 employees at the Fort Worth facility, 200 workers at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland, and 150 workers at Edwards Air Force Base in California.
CONTINGENCY PLAN
Lockheed says it offered the union a "fair and equitable contract," including wage increases of 3 percent annually in each of the three years, a $3,000 signing bonus, an annual cost of living supplement of $800 and increased retirement income for current employees.
"No meetings are scheduled at this time. The company's negotiating team would consider meeting with the union if they requested it," said Joe Stout, a Lockheed spokesman.
Stout said Lockheed's operations would remain open and it is implementing a contingency plan where salaried workers with the right certifications and training do the work of union workers, whose jobs include assembly, maintenance and sanitation.
He said Lockheed had identified about 2,200 salaried employees who were available for contingency duty.
"Some have been assigned, some are standing ready for assignments, and some are in training," he said.
Black said those contingency plans had caused problems in past strikes, when union workers had to redo some work after settling the contract dispute.
Lockheed said no mishaps or damage to the planes in assembly had occurred after the start of this strike.
Joe DellaVedova, spokesman for the Pentagon's F-35 program office, said officials were assessing the impact of the strike on development and production, but test flights would continue at Edwards Air Force Base and the Maryland naval air base.
Preliminary flights would also continue at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, where the military plans to begin training pilots to fly the new planes, he said.
"Our focus remains on moving the program forward and remaining neutral as the parties resolve their contract issues in a mutually beneficial manner," DellaVedova said, adding Pentagon officials hoped the two sides would reach an agreement that "sustains the progress the F-35 production and flight test program has shown over the past year."
Loren Thompson, a defense analyst with the Lexington Institute who has close ties to Lockheed, said the company has been under pressure by the Pentagon to drive down its pension costs on the F-35 program.
(Reporting By Andrea Shalal-Esa; Editing by Steve Orlofsky and John Mair)

[Stangkiller]

Originally Posted by NB2K

I disagree.

Davis Bacon Act says we must pay prevailing wages.
I have generally found the charts to be quite low, especially for IT.
Also, with a stoke of a pen, the CO can make the procurement exempt from Davis Bacon.

Further, large contractors continue to aggressively pursue and win federal business.
It is virtually impossible for them to lose money, given that most large contracts are cost plus award fee.
There is no incentive for them to keep costs down, so they don't.

Cost plus award fee is the biggest POS ever fed to the American public.

I work for a Billion dollar construction contractor, we do a good bit of work with the government and have had several trainings on the Davis Bacon Act.

Typically the wages of all the employees will increase while on the Davis bacon act jobs, the biggest headache isn't the pay, but it's knowing how to pay what job tasks.

You can no-longer pay somebody the same rate to install piping as clean the floors, and you can no longer pay an entry level pay to an "apprentice" without that apprentice qualifying with an accredited school. No longer can you bring cheap hourly workers for job clean up, but we're stuck with much higher paid employees doing work they shouldn't do.

There are plenty of UNION contractors, I said the non-union contractors are shying away from the Davis bacon act jobs.

[NB2K]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

I work for a Billion dollar construction contractor, we do a good bit of work with the government and have had several trainings on the Davis Bacon Act.

Typically the wages of all the employees will increase while on the Davis bacon act jobs, the biggest headache isn't the pay, but it's knowing how to pay what job tasks.

You can no-longer pay somebody the same rate to install piping as clean the floors, and you can no longer pay an entry level pay to an "apprentice" without that apprentice qualifying with an accredited school. No longer can you bring cheap hourly workers for job clean up, but we're stuck with much higher paid employees doing work they shouldn't do.

There are plenty of UNION contractors, I said the non-union contractors are shying away from the Davis bacon act jobs.

I'm not disputing your last statement as I don't have that much visibility in construction.
My contention on Davis-Bacon is that it says we must pay prevailing wages, not that we have to pay union wages. It also gets into benefits and employees moving from contractor to contractor, etc.

From what I've seen on the IT side, DB charts are low anyway.

I've bid on one or two contracts myself.

[Stangkiller]

Originally Posted by NB2K

I'm not disputing your last statement as I don't have that much visibility in construction.
My contention on Davis-Bacon is that it says we must pay prevailing wages, not that we have to pay union wages. It also gets into benefits and employees moving from contractor to contractor, etc.

From what I've seen on the IT side, DB charts are low anyway.

I've bid on one or two contracts myself.

1.) who sets prevailing construction job wages?

2.) the wages are set by job task and now employee, how unions works.

3.) they've limited the hourly unskilled laborers that can be used, again a union thing.

4.) the include benefits in the total pay, which is why some of our companies put the additional pay into a 401(k) account instead of actually increasing the employees paycheck.

Maybe it's different in IT, but in contrustion, prevailing wages and job tasks have been determined by and tied to the unions.

[NB2K]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

1.) who sets prevailing construction job wages?

2.) the wages are set by job task and now employee, how unions works.

3.) they've limited the hourly unskilled laborers that can be used, again a union thing.

4.) the include benefits in the total pay, which is why some of our companies put the additional pay into a 401(k) account instead of actually increasing the employees paycheck.

Maybe it's different in IT, but in contrustion, prevailing wages and job tasks have been determined by and tied to the unions.

That must be the case. They are always lower than what we (or anyone ekse) pays, so it isn't an issue when we bid.

Plus, as you know, when you hire someone already on-site from a previous contractor, you absorb all their accrued time.

I really blame cost plus award fee.