.45-120 blackpowder paper patched bullets - question on bullet / patch lube

[JRD77VET]

My supervisor / friend Gary has a modern .45-120 that he loads with blackpowder. He'd like to do paper patched bullets as he likes how the soft lead expands.

He's had a few folks ask to shoot it when he brings it to the range. Comments range from "How much can it kick, it's black powder" ( the guy never said a word after one round fired, put the gun down and left) to "WOW That's a real come backer"

The .45-120 is sometimes called .45 x 3-1/4. The cartridge will hold 117 grains of blackpowder without being a compressed load.

From what he explained, you take the paper patch material cut to a specific shape and literally roll the bullet and tuck the "outer" end into the bullet cavity. Spit keeps it in place. It unravels once it clears the barrel.

Should he add any type of lube for when he fires those rounds?

Thanks

Below is a picture of the .45-120 loaded with a modern solid lead bullet. The mushroomed one is a paper patched 500 grain slug that opened up to an inch. pretty much turned inside out.

[Grey Ghost]

Wow! I don't use that much in my .69 musket. I'm sure he knows there is a difference between pure black powder (2f, 3f,etc..)and some of the smokeless stuff on the market. And powder quickly fouls the barrel. During the CW they would retrieve muskets after a battle that had up to 7 minie balls still in the barrel.

Dixie Gun Works is probably his best bet for black powder supplies. Several lubes available. We use to fire my friends pistol and it was a messy loading operation with the lube, etc...and to prevent chain fire.

[JRD77VET]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

Wow! I don't use that much in my .69 musket. I'm sure he knows there is a difference between pure black powder (2f, 3f,etc..)and some of the smokeless stuff on the market. And powder quickly fouls the barrel. During the CW they would retrieve muskets after a battle that had up to 7 minie balls still in the barrel.

Dixie Gun Works is probably his best bet for black powder supplies. Several lubes available. We use to fire my friends pistol and it was a messy loading operation with the lube, etc...and to prevent chain fire.

Yes, the weapon started life as a modern .45-70. He rechambered it for .45-120

He uses black powder ( I'll find out what "f" tomorrow). It's a single shot so no worries on chain fire.

[Torqaholic]

These loads copy/pasted from a Starline brass black powder loads page:

90 X CS 45-120 535 grain cast 1634 consistent
103 X FFG BP 45-120 535 grain cast 1405 accurate
72 X CTG PYRO 45-120 535 grain cast 1410 ok
69 X 209 45-120 535 grain cast 1693 OUCH

I only grease patches as a lube in muzzle loaders to make loading consecutive shots easier. Get more shots between cleanings that way. IMO there's no "need" for a patch if the barrel is sized correctly. For example I use oversized balls instead of grease/patch in my six-shooter because the excess lead swages on the cylinder face and the tight fit prevents the possibility of a chain-fire.

Haven't done any cased BP cartridge shooting but if it's an overpressure issue the fired primers must show flattening, backing out, or signs of extrusion around the firing pin the same as with smokeless powder. Should always work up new loads for a particular gun starting with reduced charges. No idea what kind of powder was used in your example but if it handled 117gr then backing it off to 90gr is probably a good idea.

[JRD77VET]

Originally Posted by Torqaholic

These loads copy/pasted from a Starline brass black powder loads page:

90 X CS 45-120 535 grain cast 1634 consistent
103 X FFG BP 45-120 535 grain cast 1405 accurate
72 X CTG PYRO 45-120 535 grain cast 1410 ok
69 X 209 45-120 535 grain cast 1693 OUCH

I only grease patches as a lube in muzzle loaders to make loading consecutive shots easier. Get more shots between cleanings that way. IMO there's no "need" for a patch if the barrel is sized correctly. For example I use oversized balls instead of grease/patch in my six-shooter because the excess lead swages on the cylinder face and the tight fit prevents the possibility of a chain-fire.

Haven't done any cased BP cartridge shooting but if it's an overpressure issue the fired primers must show flattening, backing out, or signs of extrusion around the firing pin the same as with smokeless powder. Should always work up new loads for a particular gun starting with reduced charges. No idea what kind of powder was used in your example but if it handled 118gr then backing it off to 90gr is probably a good idea.

He's been shooting it using solid lead bullets and "massive" black powder loads for a couple decades.

Think buffalo rifle instead of musket.

[Torqaholic]

Kind of understood but it's still a new load after the rechambering job.

If not the powder load it could be case length too long (trim back to min spec), chamber too short or tight. Possible there's even a free bore situation at the end of the chamber which disallows cartridge length expansion and/or bullet jump to the rifling.

Just guesses, but I'd still back off on that powder charge before proceeding

[markids77]

Is lead fouling a problem? Difficult case extraction? Chambering issues after multiple shots? Primers backing out?
Knowing why he feels adding a lube will help determine the answer.

[allthrottleandsomebottle]

I have not made/shot them but one of our range members shoots 45-110 both ways as stated below from Montana Bullet Works. His shit is accurate!
Loading Paper Patched Bullets
Paper patched bullets (PPB) are probably the most controversial of all lead bullet styles. Much discussion and cussin have been laid at their doorstep. It has been my experience, however, that most of the cussin has been from folks with little or no personal experience with PPBs! Most shooters, given quality PPBs and proper loading techniques, are delighted to give them a try.

Consider this: when the Sharps Rifle Company was at its heyday in the 1870’s and 1880’s, the PPB was the most common bullet offered in their factory ammunition. Why? Because the PPB was and is the best lead game killing bullet available. The demise of the American Bison can be attributed primarily to PPBs. PPBs were easy to make by the frontiersman, requiring nothing but a skillet, pig lead, patching paper and a mould. Untold thousands of PPBs were made by the campfires during the 1880’s.

My son and I have personally cast, patched and shot thousands of PPBs, both in competition and hunting, and we have a very high opinion of them. My PPBs are cast of soft lead (BHN- 6), just like the old timers did. You can expect 45 caliber PPBs to expand to near silver dollar size and the 40 caliber ones to expand to half-dollar size. The old buffalo hunters reported complete penetration of their quarry with PPBs, regardless of the angle.

I have also found that carefully prepared and loaded PPBs will shoot as well as any other lead bullet style, clear out to 1,000 yds. And why not? The bullet has no contact with the barrel (which means no leading problems, even at 1500 fps), and it emerges clean and smooth with no lube or lube rings to affect it aerodynamically. Barrel clean up is minimal. We have personally shot hundreds of my PPBs during a session, without barrel cleaning and without any deterioration in accuracy. That’s with smokeless powder loads. You charcoal burners will have to clean as you normally do, because of powder fouling. That’s correct, PPBs work equally well with black or smokeless powder.

What follows is some loading tips for you first time PPB users.

Loading with Smokeless Powder
Chamfer and bell your cases as usual. Be sure that the case mouth is smooth and flared enough to start the PPB easily. Place some of the provided patch lube between your thumb and forefinger and twist the bullet, in the same direction the patch is rolled, in the lube. You will only need enough lube (pea-sized) to cover the patch. The patch lube has but one purpose – to prevent tearing the patch when the bullet is seated. You will need no other lube when using PPBs and smokeless powder.

I prefer to seat my PPBs right on the lands or even to a slight crush fit, but feel free to experiment. Use only a very light crimp. You don’t want to tear the paper patch. I prefer using one of Lyman’s taper crimp dies for this purpose. A rule of thumb is, it’s better to have the PPB a little loose than to tear the patch.

Loading with Black Powder
Loading PPBs with black powder is identical to that with smokeless, with two exceptions. First, if you compress your black powder charge to a significant degree, I suggest that you use a powder compression die before seating your PPB. My PPBs are cast from soft lead and if you try to compress your powder charge with the bullet, you may distort it.

Second, you will need to use a lube cookie under the PPB since the patch lube will be insufficient alone, to keep your powder fouling soft. You can even use your normal black powder lube to grease the paper patch, if it is soft enough to apply easily and is not mineral oil based.

Some of my PPBs are of the taper sided design. You will be able to seat them out further than you can with traditional straight-sided bullet designs. This extra length should off-set any loss of powder capacity due to the lube cookie. As with any black powder load, you will probably have to experiment somewhat with the size of the lube cookie, wads, etc., to find the best combination for your gun.

NOTE: If you use my paper patch lube, make sure that it is as soft as butter when you apply it. You can warm it under hot water, if needed. You’ll only need enough lube to cover the paper patch. I also wipe my own loaded cartridges with a paper towel before boxing, to prevent dust and dirt from accumulating on the bullet.

[JRD77VET]

Powder used is 2f blackpowder.

The paper patch die he has cut the patch paper similar to an elongated diamond. The one "point" starts off and after you get a full two wraps, the final "point lays next to the start.

Originally Posted by Torqaholic

Kind of understood but it's still a new load after the rechambering job.

If not the powder load it could be case length too long (trim back to min spec), chamber too short or tight. Possible there's even a free bore situation at the end of the chamber which disallows cartridge length expansion and/or bullet jump to the rifling.

Just guesses, but I'd still back off on that powder charge before proceeding

Originally Posted by markids77

Is lead fouling a problem? Difficult case extraction? Chambering issues after multiple shots? Primers backing out?
Knowing why he feels adding a lube will help determine the answer.

Rifle is a copy of the Winchester High Wall and it's made by Browning. Gary altered the chambering back around the year 2000. It's not a new chambering. It's been shot a lot.

The only difference is his curiousity with paper patched bullets.

[JRD77VET]

Here's Gary's Browning made copy of the Winchester High Wall.

It started life as a .45-70 and he rechambered it to .45-120

He also made the front and rear sights.