The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Standardization is applied to a lot of things. That's not an infringement on the market.

I have not said 1 thing about "infringement on the market". Try to actually read what is said as opposed to continuously making shit up.

Maybe the government should step in and regulate posts to 10 words or less so you don't have to waste your valuable time actually reading what is said before you make your completely the hell off the wall posts.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Not what I'm saying. However, they shouldn't punish you for not having a trade.
They even have rules on the value of the trade. They won't give you a $2000 trade in credit if you trade in a $500 car. There are usually minimum trade in value requirements to give you the trade in credit.

Got a link to those rules?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Not what I'm saying. However, they shouldn't punish you for not having a trade.
They even have rules on the value of the trade. They won't give you a $2000 trade in credit if you trade in a $500 car. There are usually minimum trade in value requirements to give you the trade in credit.

Ok. Whatever.

[Aerovette]

After following this thread all these days, my only conclusion is that GSC3 should take an adult with him when he buys a car.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

After following this thread all these days, my only conclusion is that GSC3 should take an adult with him when he buys a car.

I like Oliver but can you imagine doing business with him.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by LATB

I like Oliver but can you imagine doing business with him.

I'd love to. I'd take full advantage of him. The entire contract would be fine print. I'd make 150% profit.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by LATB

I like Oliver but can you imagine doing business with him.

He doesn't read contracts before he signs them so it should be easy peasy.

[LATB]

You guys are mean.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by LATB

You guys are mean.

Not even close. Yet.

I take full credit for starting a thread that now has twice as many posts as the infamous Cease and Desist thread.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

After following this thread all these days, my only conclusion is that GSC3 should take an adult with him when he buys a car.

I think his argument is better framed that he's concerned about young people, and people who aren't terribly financially savvy. There's an actual running joke about young men fresh out of high school joining the Army and then waltzing down to the Dodge dealer to grossly overpay for Chargers that are financed to the hilt for extremely long terms.

I'd support some government intervention, but not in the way GSC3 is promoting.

I'd like to see mandatory classes for ALL students, public, private, charter, even home school, that teach basic finance, basic civics, and basically basic how to adult lessons.

I was fortunate my parents taught me how to write checks, how to balance a checkbook, about the time value of money, interest, etc. Above all, the most important lessons were saving for the future and living below my means. All kids should have this kind of education, and since many of them aren't going to get it at home, it needs to be part of the school curriculum at several stages, in jr. high, and high school. They should be taught about the potential benefits, as well as pitfalls, of student loans, for example, and they should fully understand what they're getting into. Similarly, they should be taught about the car buying process. We see what a lack of knowledge in these areas leads to.


Buying a house or car are two of the more complicated financial transactions people are going to make. It's why most folks hire a realtor to guide them through the home buying or selling process. It would be good if car buyers had an understanding of the mechanics involved, or at least had a trusted person with them, overseeing the process.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Not even close. Yet.

I take full credit for starting a thread that now has twice as many posts as the infamous Cease and Desist thread.

[Aerovette]

Maybe a business model could be made for the creation of "Vehicle Agents". Like a Real Estate Agent, you have a buyer or seller and you negotiate on their behalf. So you have to pay a 6% fee, look what you gain. Free floormats or ceramic coat !!

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

Maybe a business model could be made for the creation of "Vehicle Agents". Like a Real Estate Agent, you have a buyer or seller and you negotiate on their behalf. So you have to pay a 6% fee, look what you gain. Free floormats or ceramic coat !!

Car Buying Agents has been a thing for years.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by bill_daniels

I'd support some government intervention, but not in the way GSC3 is promoting.

There already is.

There are very specific limits to interest rates. There are also rules that are specific to the military that limit rates even more. Truth in Lending requires a very detailed disclosure of how much it will cost. Below is an example.

THIS IS REQUIRED ON EVERY SALE THAT INVOLVES FINANCING.



Yea. That's a garbage ass loan, but there is nothing SNEAKY about it. If you take this loan, this is how much it will cost you. It is very clear. It is right in front of you. It is not fine print. If you have ever financed a car, you have signed a paper that looks just like this. If you didn't read it, you're a f**king idiot.

I don't know what the hell else you can be expected to do. If someone has all of the information and still chooses to do stupid shit, that's not my problem.

Of course my goal would always be to get people the best loan possible. That's not me being nice. That's business. A better loan means they're more likely to buy. With that said, some people quite simply have shit credit and end up with garbage like that example. That is not a dealer thing. That is a lender thing that a dealer has zero control over. When I started my dealership, I absolutely HATED giving shit loans. HATED. I would put that paper in front of people and flat out tell them, "this is not a good loan". I would explain exactly what it meant. I would show them that in the end, they would end up paying XXX amount. Do you know how many people changed their minds? 0.

Exactly 0.

This is not even remotely about being "misled" as GSC3 wants to claim. This is about people making stupid f**king choices. They know every detail and smile as they sign on the line for their asinine interest rate.

Because this:

Originally Posted by LATB

Most car buyers are buying a monthly payment and the dealers know this. It’s not the dealers fault.

GSC3 seems to live in some dream world where dealers are villains taking advantage of these poor innocent people who just don't know any better. That's simply not true. The reality is that they are going to do stupid shit... because that's what stupid people do.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Car Buying Agents has been a thing for years.

For non-collector car purchases? I had no idea.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

For non-collector car purchases? I had no idea.

Just one example out of many here. I've never used one but there are lots of them if you search.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

After following this thread all these days, my only conclusion is that GSC3 should take an adult with him when he buys a car.

I'm not getting bamboozled by a fast talking sales person but many people do. I walked right out of the dealership when they tried to screw me. They kept calling me and I didn't pick up the phone. They left voice mails and I didn't call back.
Unfortunately, there are many who are not seasoned car buyers that get screwed.. Dealers talk them into 84 month loans so that the payment looks low and the buyer doesn't realize that they will have to pay for 8 years.

I guess it has no sense to continue discussing this. I favor more customer protections and others think that if people are stupid, they deserve to get screwed over by a fast talking sales person.

I personally don't fall for any scams or dealer games. I've owned over 70 cars in my life and I'm a seasoned car buyer. I just noticed that in RECENT years, the amount of misleading ads has increased a lot. It's not just ads. It's also talking people into things like extended warranty, often accompanied with lies like "In order to get you the low % interest rate, the bank wants you to have the extended warranty" etc. etc..
Yes, there are honest and ethical sales people but I'm not sure if it is a majority or minority. Yes, anybody should be able to make money and a profit but not by screwing people.

Let's just agree to disagree on that. We are talking in circles for the last couple of days.

[GrandSportC3]

Here are 2 factual dealer experiences.

In 2011, I was on the market for a new Hyundai Elantra (wanted a fuel efficient commuter car in addition to my Vettes), 6-speed, GLS (base version). I went to the closest dealer to my office (Brandon Hyundai) and asked if they have such car. They didn't but they said that they could get one for me from another Florida dealer. We agreed on a price and they ran my credit and approved my loan. I had a 2004 F250 V10 that I wanted to trade in. The truck had was in great shape and had a trade in value of $9800. They offered me $3000 for the truck which was a joke.. I said: "no, thanks, I'll sell the truck privately. I can get a lot more for it". When I rejected their trade in offer, they told me that if I won't trade my truck, the price of the car would go up $2k.
I basically told them to **** themselves and walked out. Found the car I wanted at an out of state dealer. Bought the car for the advertised price without any mark ups and drove it home from out of state.
BTW, I also ended up selling my F250 V10 for $11k privately.

I already talked about my other experience when I tried to buy an Ioniq 5 for my wife...They lied to me on the phone to get me into the door and they actually had $12k mark ups on their IONIQ 5's...

Yes, there certainly are honest dealers out there but they just don't seem to be here in Central Florida. Great experience with Massey Hyundai up in Hagerstown/Maryland or with the dealer near Atlanta where I got my wife's Jeep Patriot in 2011. They were honest and ethical unlike the Central Florida dealers I have been dealing with.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Dealers talk them into 84 month loans so that the payment looks low and the buyer doesn't realize that they will have to pay for 8 years.

BULL.

SHIT.

I just posted the REQUIRED truth in Lending information. Read this slowly and try to understand. That sheet is a part of every loan. That is not fine print. It is not hidden or buried in the middle somewhere. The customer is required to sign not only the summary page, but also a SECOND terms page that tells how many payments and how much each payment is. Furthermore, there is a required definitions page that clearly spells out what every term used means.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I guess it has no sense to continue discussing this. I favor more customer protections and others think that if people are stupid, they deserve to get screwed over by a fast talking sales person.

It has nothing to do with "fast talking". The information is there. It is not only presented, it is presented CLEARLY and the customer must sign and initial about 15 different places.

That is not a dealer's fault. It isn't. No matter how much you want to make a villain, it's not the case.

Look at this. Look at this page and tell me what part of it exactly is somehow beyond your level of understanding. What part of it is unclear? What part of it is misleading?



It cannot possibly be any clearer or easy to understand.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

BULL.

SHIT.

I just posted the REQUIRED truth in Lending information. Read this slowly.
That is a part of every loan. That is not fine print. The customer is required to sign not only the summary page, but also a SECOND terms page that tells how many payments and how much each payment is.



It has nothing to do with "fast talking". The information is there. It is not only presented, it is presented CLEARLY and the customer must sign and initial about 15 different places.

That is not a dealer's fault. It isn't. No matter how much you want to make a villain, it's not the case.

Look at this. Look at this page and tell me what part of it exactly is somehow beyond your level of understanding. What part of it is unclear? What part of it is misleading?



It cannot possibly be any clearer or easy to understand.

My main concern is not the financing part. My main concern is that people are misled to get them into the door so that they can have the advantage with inexperienced buyers. As I said, it's like a hobby tennis player plays a pro. It's not fair. As I said before, I'm a seasoned buyer with over 70 cars that I bought and sold. I don't fall for those things. I just tell them to **** themselves when they try to screw me over.