Navy Seeking Homicide Charges

[Norm]

WASHINGTON — Five officers involved in two Navy ship collisions last year that killed a total of 17 sailors are being charged with negligent homicide, the Navy said Tuesday.

A Navy spokesman, Capt. Greg Hicks, said the charges, which also include dereliction of duty and endangering a ship, will be presented to what the military calls an Article 32 hearing to determine whether the accused are taken to trial in a court-martial.

The disciplinary actions were decided by Adm. Frank Caldwell and are the latest in a series of moves the Navy has made in the aftermath of the deadly collisions, which investigators concluded were avoidable. It fired several top leaders, including the commander of the 7th Fleet, Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, and several other senior commanders in the Pacific.

The Navy has been reeling from tough questions arising from the two collisions. The destroyer USS Fitzgerald struck a commercial ship off the waters of Japan in June, killing seven U.S. sailors. The destroyer USS John S. McCain collided with an oil tanker in coastal waters off Singapore in August, killing 10 U.S. sailors.

USA Today

[Fasglas]

Hmmm...

I had questions alluding to negligence at the time these collisions took place. Seems the Navy might agree.

[VatorMan]

Good.

[6spdC6]

As long as the RIGHT people are charged, not a cover up!

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by 6spdC6

As long as the RIGHT people are charged, not a cover up!

I'd worry more of a scapegoat than a coverup.

On the surface this may seem like a good idea. They screwed up, someone(s) got killed. Charge them...

But, in my opinion, this sets an absolutely terrifying precedent in the military. Where does it stop? If a soldier gets killed clearing a building in some shithole country because the squad walked into an ambush, do you charge the squad leader for not seeing it coming? Do you charge the sniper providing cover because he wasn't able to take him out in time?

What, exactly did these officers do, or not do, that warrants charges? Seeing as it specifically says officers, this means that none of the lookouts are being charged and more than likely nobody actually manning the radars is being charged. I don't see any way possible that 5 people could be charged. 2 collisions so I'm Assuming 2 for 1 collision and 3 for the other? Is this the upper chain of command or is it the watch standers? Was this a mistake in judgment by an individual, an incorrect assessment of what was happening, loss of situational awareness, a system failure of some kind, did someone set up a radar repeater incorrectly, were they standing a watch that they should have never been standing... did someone fall asleep? Driving a 509' long destroyer isn't 1 guy standing up there with a steering wheel. There are many pieces and people working together to make it happen. What really happened? Where did it all go wrong? I have spent many many hours of my life on the bridge of a destroyer just like these, standing the same watches that these officers were standing (assuming it is the watch standers being charged). In my experience, the chances that this was a single person (or even 2 people) screwing up are slim to none.

I'm not going to condemn these people either individually or as a group until I have enough information to know where the fingers should actually be pointed.

[Lakota]

One aspect of the US Navy that I like is the strict accountability. The Captain is responsible for all incident of the ship even if he's not on the ship at the time.

[RedLS1GTO]

Sooooo.... it seems that USA Today needs to get their facts straight before publishing articles.

A year after the collisions of the USS Fitzgerald and the USS John S. McCain, the Navy has announced that the commanding officers of the guided missile destroyers will face courts-martial and negligent homicide charges.

Negligent Homicide charges are being filed against 2 people, not 5 as stated in the original article... the Commanding Officer of each ship. The other officers "including two lieutenants and one lieutenant junior grade" will face charges of dereliction of duty and hazarding a vessel. These charges are pretty much in line with what I said I thought would occur when this first happened. My bet is that 1 of the LTs was a TAO while the other LT and the JG were the 2 OODs.

The very first line of the original article...

Five officers involved in two Navy ship collisions last year that killed a total of 17 sailors are being charged with negligent homicide

False. As usual, journalism fail. Get your shit together USA Today.

[VatorMan]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Sooooo.... it seems that USA Today needs to get their facts straight before publishing articles.



Negligent Homicide charges are being filed against 2 people, not 5 as stated in the original article... the Commanding Officer of each ship. The other officers "including two lieutenants and one lieutenant junior grade" will face charges of dereliction of duty and hazarding a vessel. These charges are pretty much in line with what I said I thought would occur when this first happened. My bet is that 1 of the LTs was a TAO while the other LT and the JG were the 2 OODs.

The very first line of the original article...



False. As usual, journalism fail. Get your shit together USA Today.

Hopefully this will force the USN to change their attitude about discipline and training. I'll bet the CO's lawyers point the finger at USN discipline directives aimed at the new "snowflake" recruits they've been getting.

[mrvette]

I read reports of that 800' freighter that hit our canoe as doing several turns, including a U turn, with lights out at night.....as in a deliberate ramming maneuver......what part of those reports are incorrect??

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

Hopefully this will force the USN to change their attitude about discipline and training.

I hope so.

People are so goddamn worried about being politically correct that they have completely forgotten that the point of the military is to defeat your enemy; nothing more, nothing less.

To do that you better be damn good at what you do.

[Norm]

Off subject a bit, but relevant with respect to previous post.

Trey Gowdy (Congressman) just said a few things about the military in response to the ban of transgenders. He nails it:

Nobody has a "right" to serve in the Military. Nobody. What makes people think the Military is an equal opportunity employer? Very far from it.

The Military uses prejudice regularly and consistently to deny citizens from joining for being too old or too young, too fat or too skinny, too tall or too short. Citizens are denied for having flat feet, or for missing or additional fingers. Poor eyesight will disqualify you, as well as bad teeth. Malnourished? Drug addiction? Bad back? Criminal history? Low IQ? Anxiety? Phobias? Hearing damage? Six arms? Hear voices in your head? Self-identify as a Unicorn? Need a special access ramp for your wheelchair? Can't run the required course in the required time? Can't do the required number of pushups? Not really a "morning person" and refuse to get out of bed before noon? All can be reasons for denial.

The Military has one job. War. Anything else is a distraction and a liability. Did someone just scream "That isn't Fair"? War is VERY unfair, there are no exceptions made for being special or challenged or socially wonderful. YOU change yourself to meet Military standards.. Not the other way around. I say again: You don't change the Military... you must change yourself. The Military doesn't need to accommodate anyone with special issues. The Military needs to Win Wars.

If any of your personal issues are a liability that detract from readiness or lethality... Thank you for applying and good luck in future endeavors. Who's next in line.

Not verified if Mr. Gowdy said that, but I certainly agree.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Norm

Not verified if Mr. Gowdy said that, but I certainly agree.

Yep.

...and I say that as someone who was essentially forced out of the military for injuries I sustained in some SHITHOLE country.

Maybe I should have just said that I identify as someone with good knees.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Yep.

...and I say that as someone who was essentially forced out of the military for injuries I sustained in some SHITHOLE country.

Maybe I should have just said that I identify as someone with good knees.

I would LOVE to ID with someone that had a good skeleton.....

I really miss not being .mil background, could have played with some neat toys....AF/Navy, even Army...but NO can't march 50 miles with 500 lbs on my back....

[Rob]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

If a soldier gets killed clearing a building in some shithole country because the squad walked into an ambush, do you charge the squad leader for not seeing it coming?

Impossible to answer, there are too many to choose from

[69camfrk]

While I was still in the military, I observed on more occasions than I can count, mechanics and others being "signed off" on tasks they could not do. At all costs, make things look good on paper. I'm sure it is still that way. In the AF, training records used to be your AF form 623's when they were paper copies before everything went digital. I damn near wore out a truck load of erasers decertifying an Airman who was brain dead. He literally couldn't put air in a damn tire on an aircraft and was signed off on it. By the time I was done with his records, he was starting over. Fortunately, they finally ran him off. That said, I've seen a bunch of kids that were "GOP"..good on paper, that shouldn't be allowed to stay in. And I watched some of them become NCO's and even Officers. They could take a test, but otherwise were idiots. I know it is in every industry and the military can't be left out, but why things are allowed to carry on that way is beyond me. I've also seen some of the lowest integrity levels at Senior NCO and Officer ranks that would astound most of you. They preached integrity, but dammit, that was for other people. I'm proud of my service, but I am ever so glad to be retired.

[mrvette]

69cam, man did you bring back some recollections of guys I have worked with through the years.....NUTZ I say, just NUTZ......from engineers down to just plain techs......then I went into my own business remodeling houses....and answered to my OWN screw ups....not some other dudes......