Kill Shot: Marines to End Sniper Training

[Bill]

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...-platoons.html

Marine Corps Axes Elite Scout Sniper Platoons

27 Feb 2023
Military.com | By Kelsey Baker

The Marine Corps is getting rid of one of its most elite and storied jobs -- the scout sniper.

Official message traffic leaked to social media last week described a switch from scout sniper platoons to what will only be known only as "scout platoons."

The change is part of Force Design 2030 (FD2030), the Marine Corps' ongoing and controversial effort to reinvent the service for future warfare. The decision has already triggered concerns from within the ranks about the loss of sniper capabilities.

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All three training locations for the grueling 3-month Scout Sniper course at Camp Pendleton, California; Camp Lejeune, North Carolina; and Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, will stop admitting new students starting in fiscal 2024, according to the message.

A spokesman for the Marine Corps confirmed that the scout sniper platoons would be eliminated, but said that the underlying skill set would be integrated elsewhere in the service.

"Precision rifle capability will remain within the infantry company, and the Marine Corps will continue to maintain school-trained snipers within Marine Reconnaissance and Marine Special Operations units," said service spokesman Capt. Ryan Bruce.

Bruce added that the Marine Corps' Training Command "is in the process of analyzing both the new scout platoon mission and enduring requirements for precision marksmanship capabilities to determine the performance standards and training options necessary."

Snipers are qualified to venture 10 to 20 miles beyond the forward line of troops, into the enemy's domain. Reconnaissance skills, like days-long observation of enemy outposts, are tough to maintain, as is the ability to shoot long distances with different sophisticated rifle systems. They're trained in how to call for fire and close-air support, and have to understand complex mission planning requirements.

The messages outlining the changes, posted to social media, described the move as being driven by the two-year-long "Infantry Battalion Experimentation" the Corps undertook, which "showed the scouting capabilities in the newly designed Infantry Companies were insufficient to offer the Battalion continuous all-weather information gathering."

Unlike tanks and select artillery capabilities, which were publicly put on the chopping block early during the force design rethink, the Marine Corps has remained mostly quiet on the future of snipers until now.

The new "scout platoons" will consist of 26 Marines. Infantry companies will no longer have Marines trained as snipers, but they will keep "designated marksmen."

It's not the first time the Corps has dropped the scout snipers.

The Marine Corps previously canned the program after World War I, World War II and Vietnam, anticipating that future warfare wouldn't require snipers.

Scout snipers are a storied part of Marine Corps history.

During WWII, scout snipers known as the "40 Thieves on Saipan" operated far behind enemy lines and grew famous for their silent killing techniques. And before "American Sniper," there was Carlos Hathcock, a Vietnam War Marine with 93 confirmed kills (and up to 300 unconfirmed kills), and Chuck Mawhinney, another Vietnam sniper with more than 100 confirmed kills.

The Marine Corps' commandant, Gen. David Berger, has been vocal about wanting infantry Marines to become well-versed in multiple weapons systems -- less specialized and more "commando-like."

But some Marines, who spoke with Military.com about the service's decision to eliminate scout snipers on condition of anonymity, say that kind of mindset highlights a misunderstanding of the extreme capabilities snipers provide and the importance of their uncompromising training.

"We're talking out of both sides of our mouth here," said one Marine gunner, a weapons expert. "We don't want to divest the equipment because we know we need that capability," he said, pointing out that tough-to-master sniper rifles aren't going anywhere.

"You just can't pick up an advanced sniper rifle and hand it to somebody and expect them to be able to do what a trained sniper can do," the Marine added.

Instead, the Corps will rely on training up Marines through the two-week-long Designated Marksman course.

It's unclear how "scout platoons" will be trained, as there is currently no stand-alone "scouting" course within the Marine Corps.

Scout snipers have faced a serious shortage of numbers in recent years, which some say is due in part to a too-high attrition rate from the scout sniper schoolhouses. Fewer Marines finishing the course means fewer snipers overall.

Others see it differently.

"Part of this is a retention problem," said a Marine officer who's involved with current scout sniper training efforts. The Marine said that, because being a sniper is a secondary responsibility, it gets short shrift from higher-ups.

"A lot of them want to keep doing their jobs as snipers," the Marine added. "So they get out, and they go to the SEALs, Army Special Forces or MARSOC. I've seen it happen multiple times. They don't want to stay because they're not valued properly."

Previous reporting suggests there may be anywhere from 150 to 300 scout snipers in the Marine Corps. Save for snipers produced through stand-alone courses with Reconnaissance and MARSOC units, numbers will likely plummet, given the closing of the sniper schools.

In 2018, then-Commandant Gen. Robert Neller sought to increase scout snipers' numbers, amidst the shortage. The Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory reportedly recommended an increase in sniper platoon numbers around the same time.

While snipers are set to remain at MARSOC and Recon, Marines point out that MARSOC snipers are likely to be under the purview of their Special Operations Command structure, and aren't likely to be easily dispersed throughout the service. And while Recon will maintain snipers, their small numbers and specialized, high-level missions leave the majority of Marine infantry units out in the cold.

"I think a lot of senior commanders don't really understand the full capability that a sniper brings to them," lamented a senior enlisted sniper.

"Snipers can't be mass-produced," he continued. "They're trying to mass-produce capabilities and cutting corners, thinking that numbers on a spreadsheet is what will win wars. But it's not; all it's going to do is fill body bags."

Old and busted: Learning how to kill the enemy from far away.

New and fresh: Pronoun training and men in women's latrines.

[Anjdog2003]

As long as Chief Potato head is in office it'll get worse

[Mick]

Personally, I'm starting to wonder why our military needs the ability to shoot accurately at all. It's obvious that when the shit comes down to implement the "great reset", the US military will be fully neutered.

[ratflinger]

Good, when we start shooting back they won't be able to hit us.

[DAB]

a bunch of Ukrainians that wouldn't pass our basic training have been giving the great soviet bear a pretty bloody nose for the last year.

motivation to win will overcome a lack of fancy training. it's war, cheat.

[dvarapala]

Who needs snipers when you have thousands of kamikaze drones that can loiter above, find, and then hurl themselves at the enemy?

[markids77]

WTF? The program has been scrapped as "outdated" thrice already but was resurrected 3 times as well... what genius thinks the skillset is obsolete... again? Perhaps these are the same leaders who decided the 5.56 cartridge was adequate in any scenario, until they started to re-issue the M-14 because all of a sudden the .22s legs weren't long enough "in theater".

[JRD77VET]

They just approved a new caliber for the riflemen. It's a 8.6 x 51 ( .277 bullet in the .308 case basically)

With new optics and suppressors, it allows the "regular" riflemen to be more accurate.

So, if you read between the lines, you take the new rifle and the top shooters and assign them as scout platoons , you end up with more snipers. Also, the newest drone technology allows you to scout in relative safety back from the line.

Warfare is changing

[markids77]

Originally Posted by JRD77VET

They just approved a new caliber for the riflemen. It's a 8.6 x 51 ( .277 bullet in the .308 case basically)

With new optics and suppressors, it allows the "regular" riflemen to be more accurate.

So, if you read between the lines, you take the new rifle and the top shooters and assign them as scout platoons , you end up with more snipers. Also, the newest drone technology allows you to scout in relative safety back from the line.

Warfare is changing

Maybe, but there's a hell of a lot more to sniping than just marksmanship. Infiltration/exfiltraton techniques, camoflage, how to stay absolutely still for days on end, observation, targeting, etcetera. Perhaps they will issue the designated marksmen Ghillies and send them into the wild while ex-snipers hunt them, but probably not.

[JRD77VET]

Originally Posted by markids77

Maybe, but there's a hell of a lot more to sniping than just marksmanship. Infiltration/exfiltraton techniques, camoflage, how to stay absolutely still for days on end, observation, targeting, etcetera. Perhaps they will issue the designated marksmen Ghillies and send them into the wild while ex-snipers hunt them, but probably not.

Agreed. Much more than what I wrote is involved but didn't feel like writing a novel.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by markids77

Maybe, but there's a hell of a lot more to sniping than just marksmanship. Infiltration/exfiltraton techniques, camoflage, how to stay absolutely still for days on end, observation, targeting, etcetera. Perhaps they will issue the designated marksmen Ghillies and send them into the wild while ex-snipers hunt them, but probably not.

I have met some former Marine Scout snipers. They have a set of skills that is very hard to acquire and to.maintain.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by JRD77VET

They just approved a new caliber for the riflemen. It's a 8.6 x 51 ( .277 bullet in the .308 case basically)

With new optics and suppressors, it allows the "regular" riflemen to be more accurate.

So, if you read between the lines, you take the new rifle and the top shooters and assign them as scout platoons , you end up with more snipers. Also, the newest drone technology allows you to scout in relative safety back from the line.

Warfare is changing

Excellent point.

Many of our fathers fought with a bayonet fixed to the .30 Garand.
Do they even use bayonets anymore?

[Torqaholic]

Originally Posted by JRD77VET

They just approved a new caliber for the riflemen. It's a 8.6 x 51 ( .277 bullet in the .308 case basically)

You mean 6.6 x 51?

As for the article, until they start assigning Marine snipers based on some kind of intelligence scale it's probably advisable to include the word "potential" when detailing their capabilities.

[Frankie the Fink]

Since this administration's biggest fear is foreign balloons, nearly anybody with a rifle can hit one the size of three school buses.