[MERGED] Post-Sandy-Hook Gun-Chat Thread [MERGED]

[Chris Fowler]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Are you saying cost is a factor in people NOT getting a CCW?

If cost is a factor in people not getting an ID to vote, it would be a factor for people not getting a CCW...

so...pretty much no...

[Grey Ghost]

I think these shooters were farrrrrrr from being just a bit shy or anti-social. Someone close to them has to recognize it and do a responsible thing to prevent them from harming others.

Originally Posted by DAB

having just a few friends, being interested in mechanical things and guns, being a quiet introvert....none of these are crimes, nor a reason to medicate or confine someone. do you really want some govt paid shrink to determine your fate because you don't neatly fit in the round hole they have planned for you?

not me.

if you go down this road, you may as well hang it up. they have already won, just a matter of waiting for the van to come by and pick you up.

[DAB]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

I think these shooters were farrrrrrr from being just a bit shy or anti-social. Someone close to them has to recognize it and do a responsible thing to prevent them from harming others.

ok, what?

what behavior would suffice to forcibly remove someone from their home, confine them against their will, and administer drugs to them?

playing video games?
having weird posts on FB?
discussing how to survive 'zombies'?
wanting to go to the pistol/rifle range on the weekend?
having messy hair or smelling funny?

long ago we as a society decided that just scooping up the 'unwanted' types off the street and tossing them into loonie bins, while making everyone else feel better, wasn't doing much for the ones being sent off to the sanitarium against their will. they had committed no violent crime, had made no credible threats...

be careful about going down this road.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Thomas

So, what do you all feel should be done, if anything about the gun issue specifically regarding crimes of this nature?

A: Nothing, save for maybe eliminating "gun free" school zones, which has already been mentioned. The other things I have heard suggested on radio and TV are all a no go. "Safe rooms", more secure doors and windows, cops on patrol at every campus, more security guards, more cameras, controlled access cards......all these things are just feel good b/s that would cost taxpayers money they already don't have. What part of Taxed Enough Already is so difficult? **** happens. It just happened. It will happen again. Thankfully, this kind of thing is so rare that most people will have a waaaay better chance of getting struck by lightning than being personally effected by a mass murderer.

When we are looking at spending money on schools, we should be talking about buying textbooks, paying teachers, keeping the roof from leaking, field trips, etc. Paying for police patrols, high tech locks, access cards, bullet proof glass, or whatever isn't what I want my tax dollars spent on.

[snide]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Don't you have a tree to go hug?

[Grey Ghost]

I'm not talking about the majority. I'm talking about the few that truly have serious mental problems. Someone near them probably recognized it and didn't want/take the responsibility to admit it. Not the gov. This shooters mom and everyone around him knew he wasn't right in the head. They stuck their head in the sand and ignored it.

Originally Posted by DAB

ok, what?

what behavior would suffice to forcibly remove someone from their home, confine them against their will, and administer drugs to them?

playing video games?
having weird posts on FB?
discussing how to survive 'zombies'?
wanting to go to the pistol/rifle range on the weekend?
having messy hair or smelling funny?

long ago we as a society decided that just scooping up the 'unwanted' types off the street and tossing them into loonie bins, while making everyone else feel better, wasn't doing much for the ones being sent off to the sanitarium against their will. they had committed no violent crime, had made no credible threats...

be careful about going down this road.

[DAB]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

I'm not talking about the majority. I'm talking about the few that truly have serious mental problems. Someone near them probably recognized it and didn't want/take the responsibility to admit it. Not the gov. This shooters mom and everyone around him knew he wasn't right in the head. They stuck their head in the sand and ignored it.

again, what signs did he exhibit that would warrant butting into his life by the govt?

'not right'...hell, i live in a town full of 'not right' people, a whole lot of 'individuals' as i term them. i might even be one of them, depending who's scoring that day.

let's see if i can take a guess:

young (say under 30, he was 20 - an adult)
male
few friends
likes computers
likes guns
introvert
kept to himself.

anything else?

there are evil people in the world, my best answer is to be able to defend yourself.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

I'm not talking about the majority. I'm talking about the few that truly have serious mental problems. Someone near them probably recognized it and didn't want/take the responsibility to admit it. Not the gov. This shooters mom and everyone around him knew he wasn't right in the head. They stuck their head in the sand and ignored it.

How many are willing and able to do that? From a personal perspective I had to have my Fathers drivers license taken away.He was a threat to his neighbors and I decided he could no longer drive and his Doctor agreed. He was pissed at me for close to two years.

When I spoke to people afterward many told me their aged parents should not be driving but they were afraid to do anything.

So many problem are around us and so few are willing to go that extra distance because "Someone may get mad at me".

Then people die.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Originally Posted by snide

Don't you have a tree to go hug?

So sad. Look at you defending your friend. How gallant.

[PortDawg]

The last guy really explains it...

From a few years ago.- YouTube

[PortDawg]

Something else to consider...

Thinking the Unthinkable

In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”

“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”

“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”

“You know where we are going,” I replied.

“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—“Were there any difficulties with....at what age did your child....were there any problems with...has your child ever experienced...does your child have....”

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. (A Guide to Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones). Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”

I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population. (U.S.: Number of Mentally Ill in Prisons Quadrupled | Human Rights Watch)

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail, and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011 (Nation's Jails Struggle With Mentally Ill Prisoners : NPR)

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

Interesting read

[PortDawg]

Gentlemen, let's turn it down a notch before someone says something that earns them some time off. It is Christmas after all.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

All these mental health points are very valid. Problem is, that's not where they're going to come at you. They're gonna come at you for the gun issue. It's easy, and it frighten's a fair amount of people.

[PortDawg]

Originally Posted by Thomas

All these mental health points are very valid. Problem is, that's not where they're going to come at you. They're gonna come at you for the gun issue. It's easy, and it frighten's a fair amount of people.

Sad that we go for easy instead of doing the right thing, huh?

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Originally Posted by PortDawg

Sad that we go for easy instead of doing the right thing, huh?

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately that's the direction the country has been heading. And it started LONG before the current President took office.

This is precisely what happens when apathy set's in. Is the country doomed? Far from it. Some things do have to change however. This gun issue is a symptom of a far wider problem.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Thomas

All these mental health points are very valid. Problem is, that's not where they're going to come at you. They're gonna come at you for the gun issue. It's easy, and it frighten's a fair amount of people.

Locking people up for mental health reasons should scare the bejezus out of folks, too. That's what totalitarian societies do to those who dare to speak out. Say something not politically correct, get shipped off to a mental hospital. While we do need to be able to lock people up who present a danger to others, that, like everything else govt. does, has a high potential for being abused, especially if we start passing new laws making it easier to detain people for "mental health issues."

[Blademaker]

Originally Posted by bill_daniels

especially if we start passing new laws making it easier to detain people for "mental health issues."

Not to mention that this would apply to about half the people here....

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

has a high potential for being abused, especially if we start passing new laws making it easier to detain people for "mental health issues."

True statement. Which would mean virtually every teenager would be committed by the time he's 18. Being moody and withdrawn is a hallmark of the teenage years.

Not to mention that this would apply to about half the people here..

Then we have this nugget of truth.

[Mirroredshades]

I was on the boat with London Broil when it capsized.

[Cybercowboy]

What are gays going to do after Penn State?