I need your advice, folks...

[Sea Six]

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

My take on her situation may be off track, but here it is: she is experiencing the "fight or flight response". She is running away from failure, which I doubt she has ever experienced. If I recall correctly you were planning on having your daughter work with you for two years and then taking over your practice. My gut reaction when I read that was that it is too much too fast. You just can't learn something complex that quickly. With your experience, you know what somebody in court or a deposition is going to say before they say it. You know what the opposition is going to do before they think of it themselves. That is what you call the "art" of your profession. She is used to school, where they teach you stuff and you memorize it and pass a test. It takes time, certainly more than five months to learn to think on your feet and react correctly, especially legal shit. She sees it as impossible to step into your shoes so soon, so why fail, it is easier to fold and run away from it.

The disrespect and let her go it on her own posts may be spot on, but they don't solve the true problem. She is running from failure.

This is spot-on my assessment as well.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Fight or flight?

So you get into law school, kick ass, pass the bar and THEN chicken out? After all that work?

From a 52 year olds perspective that makes ZERO sense. From a 26 year olds perspective, maybe, but it's weak at best.

[wicked_c6]

I think you should be very proud and happy that your daughter studied hard, did good things, made smart decisions, and passed the bar. She is obviously a talented and hardworking young lady. There are few with the dedication and smarts to do what she has done.

To put that into context a bit. I struggle with the realization that my 15 yr old daughter will most likely toil through life in lower paying jobs. She is bright, and of good character and work ethic (she's worked a few summers and every employer adores her). She is just not a "book" person, a "go getter", or particularly motivated at school. Both her mother and I are college educated, have very high paying jobs and have provided a solid foundation for her growing up. She does have a learning disability with reading (dyslexia) and short term memory recollection. This was spotted early on when we noticed we could spell a word to her, and she couldn't recall the word correctly that we'd spelled just 30 secs prior. That shouldn't have led to her general laziness in academics though. We are unsure where we may have went wrong, if at all, on that.

So I am now trying to show her the benefits of a solid trade (welding, electrical, etc). I've no doubt she'll do a fine job wherever she ends up working - she is likeable, a good person at heart, respectful of others, and a hard worker. For this I am happy. I could have had a drug addicted pregnant teen who hated me throughout her pre-teens into her 20's. It doesn't look like that will happen.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Just wanted to compare another fathers viewpoint. I would be most happy that my daughter had applied the hard work yours did... Even if she came to the realization it wasn't what she wanted to do as a career now...that realization will most likely change. When it does, you have equipped her with all the tools necessary to make her way. I don't know you personally, but I've read your threads for years. I have no doubt your daughter has the same demeanor, character and spirit as you do. That is truly the most important gift we can impart to our children.

While I'm disappointed at times that my daughter won't ever be a lawyer, doctor, etc. I am filled with happiness she's a good person and will contribute well to society in the end. I envy what you did as a parent to get your daughter to be so driven. It is hard when a parent is, but their child is not.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

I am filled with happiness she's a good person and will contribute well to society in the end.

Making a lot of money is not a prerequisite for these two things. I'd say you hit a home run with her.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

I didn't have any of these heady decisions at 26. I just wanted to weld pipe, ride motorcycles and bang chicks at 26 years old. No much has changed really. Being an underachiever is it's own reward.

[Stangkiller]

I've got to say learning accounting and auditing in college is 180 out from how it's actually practiced and performed in the real world, especially on the public auditing front when it comes to judgements. I suspect practicing law is something similar, would she be willing to practice Law with another firm for a while to at least see how it's done in a completely independent (from you) manner? I suspect she'd find in quick order how good a thing she really had, and once she sees how the art of law is practiced she may find a new appreciation for it.

Just my thoughts.

[Cybercowboy]

She sounds like a spoiled brat, but what do I know? I don't have any kids, and nobody gave me a dime for my education or anything else once I got out of HS. The kids that I saw get everything handed to them didn't appreciate it and years later are unhappy and unaccomplished. That's been my experience anyway.

[CP]

Originally Posted by lspencer534

That's because law is an art more than a science; you sometimes want 1 + 1 to equal 3 instead of 2.

This is why people dislike lawyers. Law should be black and white. Something abides by the law or it doesn't.

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Fight or flight?

So you get into law school, kick ass, pass the bar and THEN chicken out? After all that work?

From a 52 year olds perspective that makes ZERO sense. From a 26 year olds perspective, maybe, but it's weak at best.

Well, I am 51 years old and will turn 52 in June, so please don't pull that age card bullshit with me.

Yes, chicken out after law school. The real world is a shocker after putting all your effort into school. Things don't go as they are "supposed" to, they go however they damn well feel like. In school things always go as the teacher lays them out. Especially law school. I doubt they teach classes such as how to deal with your opponent when his lawyer is drinking buddies with the judge or Cokehead 101: How to deal with an egotistical judge on a coke binge.

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I didn't have any of these heady decisions at 26. I just wanted to weld pipe, ride motorcycles and bang chicks at 26 years old. No much has changed really. Being an underachiever is it's own reward.

*its

[CP]

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

Well, I am 51 years old and will turn 52 in June, so please don't pull that age card bullshit with me.

Yes, chicken out after law school. The real world is a shocker after putting all your effort into school. Things don't go as they are "supposed" to, they go however they damn well feel like. In school things always go as the teacher lays them out. Especially law school. I doubt they teach classes such as how to deal with your opponent when his lawyer is drinking buddies with the judge or Cokehead 101: How to deal with an egotistical judge on a coke binge.

Do people really get this upset with lawyers drinking soda?

[DukeAllen]

I've been trying to come up with a serious response, rather than my usual BS. I agree she sounds spoiled; how many people own a home when they graduate? Sounds like she hasn't had to earn her way in the real world without a prop up from dad. Probably best to chill out, let her take a few knocks...threaten to let her rent a place within the means of a babysitter...within a year the siren song of lawyer pay will bring her back.

Or you can tell her you're old, sickly, have Barbie issues, and beg her to help you.

[onedef92]

Now, if memory serves, Spence did post a pic of said daughter, correct? Just a point of order (and junk).

[jaxgator]

Originally Posted by onedef92

Now, if memory serves, Spence did post a pic of said daughter, correct? Just a point of order (and junk).

And he reposted it on page 1 of this thread.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Well, I am 51 years old and will turn 52 in June, so please don't pull that age card bullshit with me.

WTF are you talking about?

[onedef92]

It may be there are some pearls of widsom to glean from this article, Spence.

Why Are Lawyers So Miserable?

Wednesday, April 3, 2013

It seems to be common knowledge these days that being a lawyer isn't always the best job. I remember Tom Hanks giving an interview once on Inside the Actor's Studio, when he was asked what the job is he would least want to do. His answer? A lawyer, because "it's like doing homework for a living."

How oddly true.

But now, it's official.

According to a recent Forbes article, the number one unhappiest job in America is..... (drum roll, please).

Associate Attorney

I can't say I'm entirely surprised. But what is shocking is that not only are we an unhappy bunch, but we are also the most depressed. According to The Dave Nee Foundation, lawyers are the most frequently depressed occupational group in the U.S., lawyers are 3.6 times more likely to suffer from depression than non-lawyers, and lawyers rank 5th in incidence of suicide by occupation.

What gives?

I don't really know.

Whether the law profession attracts people who are unhappy and have a proclivity for depression (or really like homework), or whether it makes people unhappy or depressed, I cannot answer. But I do have a few observations:

1) A lot of people go to law school because they don't know what else to do. (I was certainly one of those people.) They are smart. They are ambitious. They want to achieve success. But they aren't vocally talented and they faint at the sight of blood and they don't want to get an MBA. So they go to law school, without really thinking about what it means to be a lawyer and whether they will even like it.

2) A lot of people go to law school because they want to make a lot of money. Because all lawyers are rich, right? Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've been around long enough now to know that this career is not easy. A lot of lawyers are struggling for work. A lot of lawyers don't find jobs upon graduation. And after incurring six figures of debt and working your ass off in law school to do your very best, that can be depressing. And make one unhappy.

3) A natural product of being a lawyer is that there is always someone waiting to tear you down. That's just the nature of being an advocate - if you are are advocating for something, there is some other lawyer out there advocating for something else. So if you spend hours, days, weeks, working on a brief, and you put your ALL into it, there will be some attorney out there waiting in the wings to tell you just how crappy your argument is. Just how sloppy your research is. Just how preposterous your position is. There is always someone waiting to pounce on a mistake, and exploit it for all to see - which can make for long days, and nights, of anxiety waiting to be "found out" for what you really are: inadequate.

4) Being a lawyer, particularly if you are at a firm, is a time based practice. It's not about efficiency, or about balance - it's about billing, billing, billing. And if you aren't willing to bill, then someone else certainly will. So there are no time outs for illness, for hobbies, for sick children, for episodes of depression. An hour not billed is an hour wasted, which allows stress and anxiety to breed, spread, and flourish, and leaves little time for that weird thing called "life."

5) Miserable people breed miserable people. As discussed, supra, the law profession is home to many miserable people. If you are unlucky enough to work for such a miserable person, you too will most likely be miserable, as said miserable person will do all they can to make your life miserable, because how is it fair that they be miserable and you be happy? Not fair at all. You, eventually, will be miserable like them.

So this is all the bad news.

But I think there's some good news too.

I know a lot of lawyers. (A lot). And a good portion of them don't fit into the unhappy, depressed category. Most of them are.... happy. Why are they happy?

1) They like what they do. Maybe they didn't really know what they would do when they went into law school, but for some odd reason, they get really excited about negotiating credit agreements (yes, honey, that's you) or spending hours on Westlaw. They like it so much that they don't get phased by the potential tear downers mentioned above in #2. They know someone somewhere may rip their argument to shreds, but they don't care because they are confident, secure, and in some ways, above it all. They are oddly unphased.

2) They have forged their own path. Maybe they didn't find a job upon graduation. Or maybe they left a firm after a few years. Maybe they are taking a few years off to be at home with their kids (ahem). But being 8 years out from my own law school graduation, I can say that I am amazed at the variety of careers one can have with a law degree. I have fellow graduates that are in-house counsel, professors, comedians, writers, freelancers and of course, firm lawyers. The fact is, if a particular field of law is not a great fit, there is plenty of opportunity to change it up.

3) They work with awesome, happy people. In some ways, I can't say I am surprised that "associate attorney" was the most unhappy job. In my six years at law firms, I saw some pretty miserable, bitter people. Really miserable. Really bitter. But, it's not always the case. Some lawyers are happy (see #1). And if you happen to find yourself working with a group of those people who really care about each other - who appreciate the importance of the billable hour, but who also recognize the supremacy of family, of mental health, of the bigger picture - then it makes ALL the difference.

4) They don't take themselves too seriously. When one is a practicing lawyer, it is easy to think that the world will end or continue turning based upon your performance. And once you get into that frame of thinking, it's hard to turn it off - If I mess up this motion, the entire case will fall apart! If I miss an important document, I will cause my client to go into bankruptcy! The fact is, no one is that important. We aren't saving lives in this business. All we can do is our best. And from what I've seen, happy lawyers are the ones that do their very best, and are then at peace with that.

There is hope for us.

But it's certainly not an easy profession.

I remember when I was in law school I would absolutely HATE it when future attorneys would warn me about joining the legal field. "Get out while you can," I remember a family friend joking to me during my first year in law school. I even got such comments from attorneys during on campus interviews. "Are you sure you want to do this?" they would tease.

Those kind of comments would always annoy me. Just because you're miserable, doesn't mean I'm going to be miserable! I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to argue for what is right and do what is right and use my analytical brain and my semi-polished writing skills. I would do what I wanted and not be deterred by older, bitter lawyers who just couldn't hack it themselves.

Now I am the one that urges young, ambitious attorneys to take caution. Really think about if you want to do this, I warn. Think about it hard.

We all want to be the happy lawyer. But we aren't all that lucky.

[lspencer534]

First, I want to thank everyone for their insightful and very helpful respones. It seems that you have assessed the situation accurately, although you may have different takes on it. At the very least you have helped me understand the situation.

To answer a few questions: Sandy asked if my kid had a severance package. No. She was just a member of my PLLC employed on a flat rate per month. Members get no befefits, employees get a retirment fund. I pay people well enough so that they can buy their own benefits.

Someone mentioned that 2 years isn't long enough to train a lawyer. My 2 year timetable was only an estimate, depending on how fast she learned.

Another criticized law for being more art than science and for being unduly complicated. Until all people are honest and have the ability to read someone else's mind, it will stay that way. 20+ years ago there was a movement to using "plain English" in contracts, etc. It failed miserably and led to more lawsuits than ever. Some writings just have to be precise to be construed by everyone the same way. BTW, lawyers don't make the law complicated. Clients do with their shenanigans.

Again, I thank everyone one of you for you help. It means a lot to me. I now know what's done is done, and I'll let my kid find her own way. It doesn't matter if she likes my help in the law or not. She'll have to figure it out on her own. That includes financially on her own. I believe that we will continue to love each other.

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Thomas

WTF are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Thomas

Fight or flight?

So you get into law school, kick ass, pass the bar and THEN chicken out? After all that work?

From a 52 year olds perspective that makes ZERO sense. From a 26 year olds perspective, maybe, but it's weak at best.

Bolded for you.

[LilRedCorvette]

Originally Posted by Cybercowboy

She sounds like a spoiled brat, but what do I know? I don't have any kids, and nobody gave me a dime for my education or anything else once I got out of HS. The kids that I saw get everything handed to them didn't appreciate it and years later are unhappy and unaccomplished. That's been my experience anyway.

Not all kids are like that. My parents paid for my and my sister's private university education, at $100K each. Not a moment was lost when walking around campus looking at the beautiful buildings thinking that 'Wow, I go to school here!'

But, we were expected to maintain our grades all through school and college. Had to be at least a B student through school and maintain 3.0 or better in college, that was the deal. I was National Honor Society in school, took all honors and AP classes, graduated in the top 10 of my class. Got Dean's List most of the time in college...missed it by a quarter of a point one semester because I was so sick that I almost died (not kidding).

We weren't allowed to have jobs during school (they wanted us to focus on getting good grades) but were expected to in the summers. Yes, we worked the crappy food service and telemarketing jobs. And growing up we had chores to do. My parents gave us both cars to get to those jobs (not the best, but hey they were wheels and we appreciated having them). Despite it not being fancy, I kept it very clean and maintained. All of these experiences taught us how to be adults.

My mother wanted to go to college, so she asked her father (my grandfather) if he would help her go. He told her that she was going to get married and have kids, and turned and walked away. I think she and Dad, as well as lots of other parents out there (maybe also spence), just wanted to give their kids more opportunities than they themselves had. It's just that some appreciate the opportunities and seize them with all their being, whereas unfortunately some do not.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

Bolded for you.

Whatever. I don't think you understood my point. Which really doesn't matter.