Corvette was crying--Pontiac you need to stop doing this

[Lakota]

Back when corvette was crying 😢 like a baby 👶, ,, "Pontiac you need to stop doing this, you're making us look bad.

Pontiac Power - This is Paul Goldsmith's 1963 LeMans 421SD that won the 250 mile American Challenge Cup race at Daytona. The field consisted of Ferrari 250 GTOs, Chevrolet Corvettes, Porsche 356B Carreras, and few other European exotics from Lotus, Maserati, and Alpha Romeo (failed to qualify). Unknown to race fans at the time, the first two positions on the grid were 427-powered Corvettes, the first "Mystery Motors" to see action. At the start, Goldsmith's 1963 LeMans, running in a field of 2-seat sports cars, looked more like a pace car than a race car. On a damp track, the 421SD-powered LeMans won the race by 5 miles over its nearest competitor. The third photo shows Goldsmith passing a couple Corvettes, one of them (#17) was A.J. Foyt.

[Lakota]

Here's the top 10 List for the Race - The SD Pontiac lapped a 427 Vette 6 times and a Ferrari 8 times etc. - no excuses 😉🏆😎👍

[outrunm]

Cool pics and info. Weird that an SCCA event utilized the trioval and stayed off the road course.

[Steve_R]

Led every lap and won $6,500.

[outrunm]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Led every lap and won $6,500.

I was not alive back then, but I understand that was a good amount of money at the time for motorsports. (especially an SCCA event)

[Vette40th]

It wasnt anything special. Just a solid car following solid a build. It really isnt as big as modern cars, as far as weight.
Cool though..

[Bruze]

My first wife had a '66 LeMans vert, maroon on white. No pix!

[BayouCountry]

I was just curious what a car like that would go for and ran across this article. Some people get lucky.

1963 Pontiac Tempest Super Duty- Ultimate Barn Find

Paul Zazarine writer Stan Antlocer photographer Mike Glass photographer
May 1, 2009

Stan Antlocer's '63 Tempest Super Duty Is The Most Significant Muscle Car Discovery Of This Century, But It Almost Ended Up In The Crusher.

It started innocently enough with an ad on eBay for a 1963 Pontiac LeMans Tempest with just 3,165 miles. With no engine or transmission, at first glace it seemed like just another derelict parts car. The Tempest had been part of a deal that included a load of scrap. At one point, the car was destined for a trip to the crusher, but there wasn't enough room on the truck. Instead of junking the Tempest, the seller thought he might get $500 if he was lucky.
…

The bidding for the SD Tempest on eBay was intense. The opening bid was $500 on October 30, 2008. Four days later, as word got around that this was the Holy Grail of Pontiac A/FX racing history, the bids had climbed to $27,500. As the tire kickers and wannabes dropped out, the real money started to bid on the car, and the price began to skyrocket. By November 7, it was at $86,500, and bidders were climbing over each other for a shot at the car. On November 9, the auction's last day, 10 bidders quickly raised the stakes from $90,000 to $121,000, and then $155,000, all in a matter of four hours. At the end, a late bidder lost out by $100 and a matter of seconds; the winning offer arrived as the auction ended at $226,521.63.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...st-super-duty/

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by Bruze

My first wife had a '66 LeMans vert, maroon on white. No pix!

I've got a '67 in maroon and white, and a '66 in red on red, but they're GTO's.

That '66 and '67 'coke bottle' body style was (and is) very attractive, IMO.

[Bruze]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

I've got a '67 in maroon and white, and a '66 in red on red, but they're GTO's.

That '66 and '67 'coke bottle' body style was (and is) very attractive, IMO. Attachment 98570

Yes, that's right. I'd forgotten (long time ago) that they had the same body.

Thinking back, the "LeMans" was actually the pricier Tempest, right?

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by Bruze

Yes, that's right. I'd forgotten (long time ago) that they had the same body.

Thinking back, the "LeMans" was actually the pricier Tempest, right?

They were all based on the Tempest. Same body. The LeMans had nicer trim, tail lamps, and interior than the Tempest. The GTO was basically a LeMans with parking lights in the grille, handling package, and the 389 engine instead of the. The LeMans was every bit as luxurious as the GTO, just less engine and about $280 cheaper. The GTO in '66 and '67 had their own tail lights, different from the LeMans to further distinguish them. I have seen several LeMans's back in the day that had the 4 speed, console,, gauges, etc.---everything the GTO had, except the bigger engine.

[Bruze]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

They were all based on the Tempest. Same body. The LeMans had nicer trim, tail lamps, and interior than the Tempest. The GTO was basically a LeMans with parking lights in the grille, handling package, and the 389 engine instead of the. The LeMans was every bit as luxurious as the GTO, just less engine and about $280 cheaper. The GTO in '66 and '67 had their own tail lights, different from the LeMans to further distinguish them. I have seen several LeMans's back in the day that had the 4 speed, console,, gauges, etc.---everything the GTO had, except the bigger engine. Attachment 98578
Attachment 98579

Yes, I knew that, and was trying to make that point (I'm not Googling any of this, it's all retained memory so it might not be exact).

From around '60-'62 when the Corvairs came out (had a '61) Chevy IIs (had two) Cutlass (had a '63) Falcons (Dad had a '63) Valiants, Darts, yadda yadda, I remember the Tempest from around that era also, small ugly little car and it was similarly sized -- all designed for economy. Maybe gas shot up from 21¢ per gallon to 23¢ or something and scared everybody.

This is why my '70 Roadrunner had a Belvedere owner's manual in the glovebox, because that's what they were built from -- back in the day when manuals were only about 30 pages long and nobody ever really needed them.

And as things always go, the economy cars got bigger, the engines got bigger, and some turned into the early muscle cars.

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by Bruze

Yes, I knew that, and was trying to make that point (I'm not Googling any of this, it's all retained memory so it might not be exact).

From around '60-'62 when the Corvairs came out (had a '61) Chevy IIs (had two) Cutlass (had a '63) Falcons (Dad had a '63) Valiants, Darts, yadda yadda, I remember the Tempest from around that era also, small ugly little car and it was similarly sized -- all designed for economy. Maybe gas shot up from 21¢ per gallon to 23¢ or something and scared everybody.

This is why my '70 Roadrunner had a Belvedere owner's manual in the glovebox, because that's what they were built from -- back in the day when manuals were only about 30 pages long and nobody ever really needed them.

And as things always go, the economy cars got bigger, the engines got bigger, and some turned into the early muscle cars.

Your memory is accurate. The intermediate '61-'63 cars were totally different than the '64 and up A body intermediate, which was a full frame car with a regular drivetrain. The '61-'63 Tempests had independent rear suspension, swing axles, a rear transaxle, and a 'rope' drive shaft that actually curved under the car for a low floor tunnel. They handled like the rear engine Corvair, and thte 4 cylinder Pontiac was a 389 V8 split in half. Mickey Thompson got something like 285 HP from a 4 cylinder '61 back in the day.
The NASCAR '63 Tempests and NHRA Tempests had 421 engines, conventional T-10 four speed transmissions, and were converted to a solid rear axle. A very odd duck, indeed, and as stated earlier, very light weight.

[6spdC6]

Originally Posted by Bruze

Yes, I knew that, and was trying to make that point (I'm not Googling any of this, it's all retained memory so it might not be exact).

From around '60-'62 when the Corvairs came out (had a '61) Chevy IIs (had two) Cutlass (had a '63) Falcons (Dad had a '63) Valiants, Darts, yadda yadda, I remember the Tempest from around that era also, small ugly little car and it was similarly sized -- all designed for economy. Maybe gas shot up from 21¢ per gallon to 23¢ or something and scared everybody.

This is why my '70 Roadrunner had a Belvedere owner's manual in the glovebox, because that's what they were built from -- back in the day when manuals were only about 30 pages long and nobody ever really needed them.

And as things always go, the economy cars got bigger, the engines got bigger, and some turned into the early muscle cars.

Way back in that time I had a sort of quick 59 BellAir with the 283 power pack engine and the rare 4 speed stick. Had a tree run out in front of me and the car went to the junk yard.

A friend of the family had a Tempest rag top for sail cheap. I need wheels fast so bought it. That little thing had the auto trans stick on the dash. Car was powered by the mighty cut in half 389 V8 Looking at the power plant from one side it looked very impressive, from the other it was more like a WTF is that!

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by outrunm

I was not alive back then, but I understand that was a good amount of money at the time for motorsports. (especially an SCCA event)

1965 median income was 6900.00

[Mick]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Your memory is accurate. The intermediate '61-'63 cars were totally different than the '64 and up A body intermediate, which was a full frame car with a regular drivetrain. The '61-'63 Tempests had independent rear suspension, swing axles, a rear transaxle, and a 'rope' drive shaft that actually curved under the car for a low floor tunnel. They handled like the rear engine Corvair, and thte 4 cylinder Pontiac was a 389 V8 split in half. Mickey Thompson got something like 285 HP from a 4 cylinder '61 back in the day.
The NASCAR '63 Tempests and NHRA Tempests had 421 engines, conventional T-10 four speed transmissions, and were converted to a solid rear axle. A very odd duck, indeed, and as stated earlier, very light weight.

I've heard tale that the 1963 Pontiac Tempest could easily be confused with a 1964 Buick Skylark.

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by Mick

I've heard tale that the 1963 Pontiac Tempest could easily be confused with a 1964 Buick Skylark.

Movie misnomer. The '64 Skylark, as well as Tempest/Lemans, Chevelle, and Cutlass were all on the all-new A-body platform. The '63's were totally different, smaller cars.

[Yadkin]

This '62 is on the auction block now. High bid currently $1100.

[GTOguy]

Weird little cars. Fun fact: the Trophy 4 engine has no oil filter. Solid old CA car here, though, strange as it is.

[Bruze]

Originally Posted by VITE1

1965 median income was 6900.00

In 1968 my BIL was a journeyman machinist, and earned $3.27 per hour.

At 52 weeks per year, that comes to $6,801.60

Close enough for Barn maff!