Just had a conversation that sorta refocused the mind.

[Loco Vette]

You may recall this thread from Friday, 10/12/2012

FML

Representative example of the mess:



Well I just got off the phone with the lady who coordinated the picking up of the rolled over cars. She was working another derailment in Louisville, KY. I apparently called her 30 seconds after the events that generated the 1:37pm update to this story:
Tricky railcar operation

occurred.

Prayers for the injured and the local community. Makes my pissant little problems seem much more manageable.

[Stangkiller]

Yikes

[simpleman68]

Carrying Hydrogen Flouride
Had to look that up to see just how nasty it is.

Hydrogen fluoride boils just below room temperature whereas the other hydrogen halides condense at much lower temperatures.

Hydrogen fluoride is a highly dangerous gas, forming corrosive and penetrating hydrofluoric acid upon contact with tissue. The gas can also cause blindness by rapid destruction of the corneas.

Prayers for the clean up crew to keep in it and stay safe.
Scott

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by simpleman68

Carrying Hydrogen Flouride
Had to look that up to see just how nasty it is.

Hydrogen fluoride boils just below room temperature whereas the other hydrogen halides condense at much lower temperatures.

Hydrogen fluoride is a highly dangerous gas, forming corrosive and penetrating hydrofluoric acid upon contact with tissue. The gas can also cause blindness by rapid destruction of the corneas.

Prayers for the clean up crew to keep in it and stay safe.
Scott

I've worked with a lot of dangerous chemicals in my tenure as a chemist/prof. (including cyanide, azide, ethidium bromide, etc.)but there are a few things that make me really nervous: HF is right at the top of the list.

It is nasty, dangerous, and I refuse to work with it on campus or have my students anywhere near it.

[VatorMan]

Kind of makes you wonder-Is rail the safest way to transport this stuff ? Is it because of the massive quantities in each car ?

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

Kind of makes you wonder-Is rail the safest way to transport this stuff ? Is it because of the massive quantities in each car ?

I would think so, along with the relatively remote locations of most railroads. True some go through towns, but for the most part, people don't like to live near them. Roadways would be worse, given the increased number of people. With airplanes, pressure issues could get ugly.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

Kind of makes you wonder-Is rail the safest way to transport this stuff ? Is it because of the massive quantities in each car ?

we should give it to meth'd out truckers

[VatorMan]

Seems like in this day and age they could come up with some kind of super container or some automatic containment system.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

I worked at 3M around this HF crap. We repiped a bunch if cells that hold the stuff.

Nasty doesn't even begin to cover it.

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

Seems like in this day and age they could come up with some kind of super container or some automatic containment system.

Maybe similar to what they use for radioactive waste?

[Tossin]

Originally Posted by Entropy

I've worked with a lot of dangerous chemicals in my tenure as a chemist/prof. (including cyanide, azide, ethidium bromide, etc.)but there are a few things that make me really nervous: HF is right at the top of the list.

It is nasty, dangerous, and I refuse to work with it on campus or have my students anywhere near it.

Osmium tetroxide is another fun one to work around.

[Loco Vette]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

Kind of makes you wonder-Is rail the safest way to transport this stuff?

By far, actually. Each railcar can hold 3.4 to 4 times what a truck can, and on any given trip has far fewer railroad crossings than truck would encounter intersectons.

Is it because of the massive quantities in each car ?

And the engineering that goes in to them - I had the pleasure of going to a training session at SERTC this year and what they do is very impressive.

SERTC

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by Tossin

Osmium tetroxide is another fun one to work around.

Never worked with that, I used uranium nitrates for the small amount of TEM work I did.

Organic synthesis is another realm completely. I'm very happy that I didn't take a shine to that, although I would likely be several orders of magnitude more wealthy.

[VatorMan]

Originally Posted by Entropy

Maybe similar to what they use for radioactive waste?

[Tossin]

Originally Posted by Entropy

Never worked with that, I used uranium nitrates for the small amount of TEM work I did.

Organic synthesis is another realm completely. I'm very happy that I didn't take a shine to that, although I would likely be several orders of magnitude more wealthy.

I used that stuff in undergrad for some TEM work. The warnings we got were fun. The professor and I were the only ones allowed to touch it (I was a TA at the time)...good times.

[mrvette]

Guys, I totally chemically IGnorant, I know NOTHING of that weird shit....Hell, I don't even get along with a can of paint too good.....

so what USE are these super hyper chemicals FOR?? what they DO, yeh sure some industrial process, but what is the END product that that shit is necessary??

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by mrvette

Guys, I totally chemically IGnorant, I know NOTHING of that weird shit....Hell, I don't even get along with a can of paint too good.....

so what USE are these super hyper chemicals FOR?? what they DO, yeh sure some industrial process, but what is the END product that that shit is necessary??

I know that hydrogen fluoride (HF) can be used in some organic synthesis (the fluoride is a good marker on certain compounds and further chemistry can occur at those spots, so drug synthesis, etc.), but it also has the ability to etch materials.

[Loco Vette]

It's got quite a few applications:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Uses[edit] Oil refiningIn a standard oil refinery process known as alkylation, isobutane is alkylated with low-molecular-weight alkenes (primarily a mixture of propylene and butylene) in the presence of the strong acid catalyst derived from hydrofluoric acid. The catalyst protonates the alkenes (propylene, butylene) to produce reactive carbocations, which alkylate isobutane. The reaction is carried out at mild temperatures (0 and 30 °C) in a two-phase reaction.

[edit] Production of organofluorine compoundsThe principal use of hydrofluoric acid is in organofluorine chemistry. Many organofluorine compounds are prepared using HF as the fluorine source, including Teflon, fluoropolymers, fluorocarbons, and refrigerants such as freon.[3]

[edit] Production of fluoridesMost high-volume inorganic fluoride compounds are prepared from hydrofluoric acid. Foremost are Na3AlF6, cryolite, and AlF3, aluminium trifluoride. A molten mixture of these solids serves as a high-temperature solvent for the production of metallic aluminium. Given concerns about fluorides in the environment, alternative technologies are being sought. Other inorganic fluorides prepared from hydrofluoric acid include sodium fluoride and uranium hexafluoride.[3]

[edit] Etchant and cleaning agentThe ability of hydrofluoric acid to dissolve metal oxides is the basis of several applications. It removes oxide impurities from stainless steel, a process called pickling, and silicon wafers in the semiconductor industry. In this regard it is also referred to as BHF, (when Buffered with Ammonium Fluoride), and BOE (for Buffered Oxide Etch). It is a significant constituent of Wright Etch and the similar HNA (HF+Nitric+Acetic Acid) etch. In similar manner, it is also used to etch glass. A 5% to 9% hydrofluoric acid gel is also commonly used to etch all ceramic dental restorations to improve bonding.[5] For similar reasons, dilute hydrofluoric acid is a component of household rust stain remover and in car washes in "wheel cleaner" compounds.[6] Hydrofluoric acid attacks glass by reaction with silicon dioxide to form gaseous or water-soluble silicon fluorides. This dissolution process proceeds as follows:

SiO2 + 4 HF → SiF4 (g) + 2 H2O
SiO2 + 6 HF → H2SiF6 + 2 H2O
Because of its ability to dissolve iron oxides as well as silica-based contaminants, hydrofluoric acid is used in pre-commissioning boilers that produce high-pressure steam.

[edit] Niche applicationsBecause of its ability to dissolve oxides, hydrofluoric acid is useful for dissolving rock samples (usually powdered) prior to analysis. In similar manner, this acid is used in acid macerations to extract organic fossils from silicate rocks. Fossiliferous rock may be immersed directly into the acid, or a cellulose nitrate film may be applied (dissolved in amyl acetate), which adheres to the organic component and allows the rock to be dissolved around it.[7]

Diluted hydrofluoric acid (1 to 3 %wt.) is used in the petroleum industry in a mixture with other acids (HCl or organic acids) in order to stimulate the production of water, oil, and gas wells specifically where sandstone is involved.[citation needed]

Hydrofluoric acid is also used by some collectors of antique glass bottles to remove so-called 'sickness' from the glass, caused by acids (usually in the soil the bottle was buried in) attacking the soda content of the glass.[citation needed]

[CP]

And much of the population doesn't know that a lot of the Bakkan shale oil is going to be moved by train because the tree huggers won't let pipelines be built. Wait until one of those 100 tank car trains derails and catches on fire or dumps its load into the nearest stream.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

When you're welding and installing this piping, EVERYTHING get a hydro test prior to returning to service. Flanges, unions, welds, all of it.

One leak, and someone is getting paycheck cut and going home. For good.