Welfare programs, my argument, your thoughts?

[LATB]

The safety net has become a hammock.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

While that all sounds great...no changes to welfare programs will ever be made if the best we can do is attack the concept. Attaching to and attacking welfare programs with liberals, and using the description as if it were a foul word, gets us no where, hell you might as well be starting more welfare programs.

Start with a problem we can all agree on, and go from there..unfortunately I don't think we can even agree on a problem right now.

5% less taxes on just the rich, is NOT causing these welfare programs budgets to bloat.

Welfare is a cancer that is eating the values out of our society. While I understand that it will be impossible to get rid it must be dramatically curtailed.

It has effectively destroyed black American culture and is now eating at mainstream culture. The very idea that anyone is "Owed" something for just being born is ridiculous.

Rewarding bad behavior only increases the incidents of bad behavior.

[Stangkiller]

Originally Posted by VITE1

Welfare is a cancer that is eating the values out of our society. While I understand that it will be impossible to get rid it must be dramatically curtailed.

It has effectively destroyed black American culture and is now eating at mainstream culture. The very idea that anyone is "Owed" something for just being born is ridiculous.

Rewarding bad behavior only increases the incidents of bad behavior.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, but blaming the dems doesn't get us anywhere but farther into trouble.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, but blaming the dems doesn't get us anywhere but farther into trouble.

They are at fault along with the rest of the politicians of any stripe that has used all of these programs to maintain and grow their power base.

[Stangkiller]

Originally Posted by VITE1

They are at fault along with the rest of the politicians of any stripe that has used all of these programs to maintain and grow their power base.

So in other words the Republicans are to blame just as much.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

So in other words the Republicans are to blame just as much.

Originally Posted by TxAg

Please show me the option where I don't have to pay into those crap programs anymore. Oh that's right I don't. So I'm not paying, I'm having my paycheck looted by the scum bucket looter dudes in DC.

When it's optional and I GIVE my money to those programs, then I'm paying. Until then, it's theft. Period. End of discussion.

Until Glen Beck explained it best, I never understood why the R party didn't do more to eliminate the '60's socialist agenda ....like when Reagan was in power....

I give RR a break, he most likely was not a PROGRESSIVE who have infiltrated BOTH parties up to the command structure.....but he surely acted like one for that first amnesty trick 30 years ago.....

It's NOT R&D it's US vs PROGRESSIVES/liberals/commies call them what you will, ......

[Peter Pan]

Time to cut the federal welfare programs and do a stepped fair tax only the true poor will not pay taxes, I bet as more of us pay taxes that were on the doles will work harder. Drug testing to get handouts needs to be done everywhere, if you want my tax $$ I do no want to pay for your drugs. Oh I am taxed enough already

[Iron Chef]

My father, who grew up during the Great Depression, once told me: "When I was a kid, if you didn't work, you didn't eat."

Works for me.

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

Social Security for retirees is not a welfare program. Many of the disability based Social Security benefits are welfare programs.

So are you against social assistance for those with mental and physical disabilities that prevent them from working?

26 weeks of Unemployment is not a welfare program, anything beyond the 26 weeks of insurance is a welfare program.

In a normal economy, I would tend to agree with this. Unfortunately there are millions of Americans that are unemployed now for much longer than that. Its not that these people are lazy, there are simply no jobs to be had. So what do you want to do? If you stop assisting them, they may lose their house. They may have kids they have to feed. If you think cutting off your neighbor won't affect you, think how much more your property will depreciate if everyone now on unemployment lost their homes. Think about how much crime will increase if people are starving. In this economy, I have no problem with our government providing assistance as long as the unemployed can demonstrate they are actively looking for employment.

Medicare <insurance for the retired correct?> Is borderline a welfare program due to what you've put in isn't any where near the benefits it pays.
Medicaid<for the poor> Is a welfare program.
Section 8
Food Stamps, ect.

I never said I wanted to eliminate any of the programs, but if we don't re-vamp, them now it's just going to be worse later on.

Medicare excluded, the others are social assistance programs.

The question then becomes how do you better manage them? If you means test them then you will have to hire more people to do home inspections. The money you could save would be offset by the money spent to hire additional inspectors. If you simply cut them, crime will increase and now the money you saved will have to be spent on MUCH more expensive law enforcement and incarceration.

You can not simply tell tens of millions of people the assistance is going to stop and they will have to fend for themselves when there are no jobs available.

When the economy improves and opportunities exist, social assistance programs can be looked at and revamped to be more structured and efficient. But for right now, the only solution is to continue what is currently in place.

I have no problem increasing taxes on corporations to support those out of work. After all, its the fault of many of these companies that shifted their manufacturing overseas that caused this problem to begin with.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

I have no problem increasing taxes on corporations to support those out of work. After all, its the fault of many of these companies that shifted their manufacturing overseas that caused this problem to begin with.

And you wonder why they are moving jobs and their profits overseas. The very welfare programs you support helped to drive them overseas for two reason.
1) It cut the low cost labor market significantly because a large sector of people did not have to work
2) And those that do work had to pay for the deadbeats that did not work. Raising taxes and the cost of doing business.

[mrvette]

Originally Posted by VITE1

And you wonder why they are moving jobs and their profits overseas. The very welfare programs you support helped to drive them overseas for two reason.
1) It cut the low cost labor market significantly because a large sector of people did not have to work
2) And those that do work had to pay for the deadbeats that did not work. Raising taxes and the cost of doing business.

AND that myriad of silly .gov agencies like EPA, land mgmt, and any other weenie dominated agency.....

if you assemble as much as a micro processor, you got the .gov all OVER your ass over every possible bug disturbed in the dirt....

[VITE1]

Even during times of very low unemployment welfare rates continuities to rise.

Welfare Dependence in America and Welfare Spending

[BuckyThreadkiller]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

So are you against social assistance for those with mental and physical disabilities that prevent them from working?

In a normal economy, I would tend to agree with this. Unfortunately there are millions of Americans that are unemployed now for much longer than that. Its not that these people are lazy, there are simply no jobs to be had. So what do you want to do? If you stop assisting them, they may lose their house. They may have kids they have to feed. If you think cutting off your neighbor won't affect you, think how much more your property will depreciate if everyone now on unemployment lost their homes. Think about how much crime will increase if people are starving. In this economy, I have no problem with our government providing assistance as long as the unemployed can demonstrate they are actively looking for employment.

Medicare excluded, the others are social assistance programs.

The question then becomes how do you better manage them? If you means test them then you will have to hire more people to do home inspections. The money you could save would be offset by the money spent to hire additional inspectors. If you simply cut them, crime will increase and now the money you saved will have to be spent on MUCH more expensive law enforcement and incarceration.

You can not simply tell tens of millions of people the assistance is going to stop and they will have to fend for themselves when there are no jobs available.

When the economy improves and opportunities exist, social assistance programs can be looked at and revamped to be more structured and efficient. But for right now, the only solution is to continue what is currently in place.

I have no problem increasing taxes on corporations to support those out of work. After all, its the fault of many of these companies that shifted their manufacturing overseas that caused this problem to begin with.

The federal government is 14,000,000,000,000.00 in debt. How do you propose to pay for that? Considering that there are only about 140,000,000 working Americans?

[Chris Fowler]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

I have no problem increasing taxes on corporations to support those out of work. After all, its the fault of many of these companies that shifted their manufacturing overseas that caused this problem to begin with.

Which will encourage them to shift more of their industry overseas.

Again...feel good policy rather than logical...

[NotSlo]

Originally Posted by VITE1

And you wonder why they are moving jobs and their profits overseas. The very welfare programs you support helped to drive them overseas for two reason.
1) It cut the low cost labor market significantly because a large sector of people did not have to work
2) And those that do work had to pay for the deadbeats that did not work. Raising taxes and the cost of doing business.

Stop making sense, it's more fun to blame the evil corporations.

[BuckyThreadkiller]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

I have no problem increasing taxes on corporations to support those out of work. After all, its the fault of many of these companies that shifted their manufacturing overseas that caused this problem to begin with.

Their FAULT?

Phil that's just nuts. Increase taxes and you further incentivize those companies to leave the US altogether. Or don't you see that?

Corporations don't NEED the US market anymore - China and the far east are where the US was 75 years ago as emerging consumer societies. Rural electrification? Telecommunications? Infrastructure like highways and waterworks and sewer systems... all that stuff that made American industry powerful and profitable through the 50 and 60s has become a market offshore too.

But this time it's on a scale 10 times what we stumbled through learning here turning on lights in Tennessee and paving I40 across Oklahoma - now American industry knows how to do all that - just like rebuilding Japan after WWII.

So fire up your tax machine and watch Caterpillar and Exxon and GM and Ford and United Tech move whole companies to less restrictive, less onerous countries.

Who pays for your Utopia then?

[Joecooool]

Originally Posted by BuckyThreadkiller

Their FAULT?

Phil that's just nuts. Increase taxes and you further incentivize those companies to leave the US altogether. Or don't you see that?

Corporations don't NEED the US market anymore - China and the far east are where the US was 75 years ago as emerging consumer societies. Rural electrification? Telecommunications? Infrastructure like highways and waterworks and sewer systems... all that stuff that made American industry powerful and profitable through the 50 and 60s has become a market offshore too.

But this time it's on a scale 10 times what we stumbled through learning here turning on lights in Tennessee and paving I40 across Oklahoma - now American industry knows how to do all that - just like rebuilding Japan after WWII.

So fire up your tax machine and watch Caterpillar and Exxon and GM and Ford and United Tech move whole companies to less restrictive, less onerous countries.

Who pays for your Utopia then?

Jim,

Corporations in this country have so many loop holes that they are actually taxed at some of the lowest rates in the industrialized world.

Every time I hear this stuff about companies leaving because of the high taxes, all I have to do is point the finger at Germany. They have one of the highest tax rates in the world and they are doing quite well compared to some of the other first world economies.

The reality is that these companies move their operations overseas because the labor is cheaper, not because of the taxes. Then we allow them to keep the profits overseas where they are not taxed. How god damn crazy is that?

We have Fortune 500 companies renouncing their American identity and opening up shell companies all around the world to hide money from the federal government. Why are none of you pissed off about that? No, it's the poor guy that lost his welding job that is bringing down America. WTF???

No US company gives one single rat fu@k about any of you. Tax the bastards and jail the son of a bitches that try to skirt the system.

[LATB]

The commie has spoken

[NotSlo]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

Jim,

Corporations in this country have so many loop holes that they are actually taxed at some of the lowest rates in the industrialized world.

Every time I hear this stuff about companies leaving because of the high taxes, all I have to do is point the finger at Germany. They have one of the highest tax rates in the world and they are doing quite well compared to some of the other first world economies.

The reality is that these companies move their operations overseas because the labor is cheaper, not because of the taxes. Then we allow them to keep the profits overseas where they are not taxed. How god damn crazy is that?

We have Fortune 500 companies renouncing their American identity and opening up shell companies all around the world to hide money from the federal government. Why are none of you pissed off about that? No, it's the poor guy that lost his welding job that is bringing down America. WTF???

No US company gives one single rat fu@k about any of you. Tax the bastards and jail the son of a bitches that try to skirt the system.

Do you actually believe the bullshit you spew?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

I have no problem increasing taxes on corporations to support those out of work. After all, its the fault of many of these companies that shifted their manufacturing overseas that caused this problem to begin with.

Why do you think corporations are going overseas? Do you think they are doing it because they are big meanies who hate America? No. They are doing it TO MAKE MONEY. In case you forgot... that is the point of business. You really think taxing the hell out of them is the way to fix it? You can't be that ignorant of business sense.

People like to point the finger at GE because of the ignorant ass NY Times article. Of course Libs love the Times so it is not a surprise.

The article stating that GE paid zero taxes (and actually instead received money) that was originally published by them has been shown time and time again to be simply false.

The truth about GE's tax bill - Fortune Features

The truth about GE&rsquo;s tax bill - The Washington Post

Personally I believe what the writers at Fortune have to say over the NY Times.

GE uses very aggressive tax avoidance strategies. Nobody would deny that, but that is about where his article stops being correct.

Consider that GE currently has ~135,000 American employees and since the beginning of 2009, with almost every single American corporation downsizing, GE has created ~8,000 new jobs in the U.S. and has invested over a billion dollars into American production facilities.

Seems to me like this is as close to proof as you will ever get that lower corporate taxes drives hiring and leads to more revenue.

- More products made in America
-135,000 people worth of income taxes collected.
-135,000 people not on unemployment.
-135,000 families not on food stamps, welfare, etc.

GE's actual tax record aside, you point at these evil corporations like them as what is wrong with this country. Looks to me like GE is one of the few corporations actually helping the economy right now.

Proctor and Gamble, Boeing, L-3, Siemens, Hewlett-Packard ... you name it... ALL of them are cutting American jobs. Why? Because it is cheaper and more profitible for them to go elsewhere. If you want jobs to stay here or to be created here you have to make it profitible for companies to do so. It is a very simple concept. The point of business is to make money, and they will go to where that is most likely to happen. Don't blame the companies for leaving. Blame the government and the lawmakers that are forcing them to.

Taxing business is simply not the answer. If you tax business, the only thing that happens is that those businesses either A.) pass on that price in their products or B.) pack up and go somewhere else. It is simple economics. We have union workers getting paid $25/hr to do minimum wage jobs. We have forced spending on healthcare programs, unemployment programs, etc, etc, etc. We have made it an absolutely stupid business decision to stay here. Until that changes, businesses will continue to leave, unemployment will continue to rise, and the economy will continue to suffer.