the Fairness in Taxation Act

[Broken Wind]

You put way more thought into that response than this forum deserves. All you will get from the other side is a one or two line non sequitor containing a half dozen slashes, two asterisks, and four references to so-called conservative talking heads.

[wicked_c6]

Originally Posted by Broken Wind

You put way more thought into that response than this forum deserves. All you will get from the other side is a one or two line non sequitor containing a half dozen slashes, two asterisks, and four references to so-called conservative talking heads.

I realize that. I'll never change their feelings or outlook on life. To the contrary I respect them for their strong beliefs. But when someone takes a logical look at why people are economically different - there are reasons for it...and not due to "the man", a company, an executive has been holding them back. Its usually themselves, their instant gratification needs, and lack of goals.

I'm just a bit tired of hearing how people with money should be ashamed. Do I wish I were a hedge fund manager making 100 million a year? Hells yes. Could I go complete another masters (in economics), start at a firm, work my way up, prove my competence with funds, and in 15 years or so be making silly amounts of money... Probably...its likely I'll be making more than I do now.

However, I've given up on trying to make a million a year. There was a time in my early 30s that I wanted to be a CIO at a huge fortune 500 company. I was working my way towards that - but found a comfy niche with a smaller company that paid less, but offered my more in freedom to do my job the way I wanted. I'm quite happy where I am at in life - and so I don't feel like taking more college, taking on more work, or sacrificing time with my family.

[Z06PDQ]

"people with money" shouldn't be "ashamed" for having money. they should be ashamed for the fact that they made it off the backs of other hard working,loyal people or inherited it & when the SHTF they piss on their heads. it's their country,too & it's time to step up. think of it as a fee for enjoying the right to do bidness in the most fertile capitalist garden in the universe.

[Broken Wind]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

"people with money" shouldn't be "ashamed" for having money. they should be ashamed for the fact that they made it off the backs of other hard working,loyal people or inherited it & when the SHTF they piss on their heads. it's their country,too & it's time to step up. think of it as a fee for enjoying the right to do bidness in the most fertile capitalist garden in the universe.

Is that really your view of the world? People with money got there by taking advantage of others? Really?

You know, I have a twenty-something stepson you need to meet. He lives in his dad's basement too.

In all sincerity, the only people I have ever known who think like that are those who made some horrendous choices in life and resent everyone and anyone who has it better than them. If this describes you, I will not even piss on your head.

[wicked_c6]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

"people with money" shouldn't be "ashamed" for having money. they should be ashamed for the fact that they made it off the backs of other hard working,loyal people or inherited it & when the SHTF they piss on their heads. it's their country,too & it's time to step up. think of it as a fee for enjoying the right to do bidness in the most fertile capitalist garden in the universe.

OK well... doesn't someone always have to make money off someone else? Otherwise what would be the incentive to risk capital, a persons time, and a persons hardwork? Would you prefer that all businesses be owned by the Govt and no profit made? Where would be the innovation? Why would I put in extra effort if person A gets the same as person B, even though person A is better educated, has more skill, etc.

A person has two choices in life. Be a worker or be an owner. Owners are loyal. As I just proved in an earlier post most business owners are hardworking. However, owners are in business to perpetuate their business and to profit. This means paying people a wage that allows the company to profit. Just the way it is - and it has built this country and the citizens in it up to unprecedented levels not seen in other countries.

Again, if one of those hard working, loyal workers would like - they have all the freedom (well for now anyway ) to go out and start their own business. And when they do...they can make all their workers equal to themselves...and pay them all what he makes. Lets see how long that business lasts. An owner (usually) has a skill. Their skill is organizing the business, funding it, and maintaining the bottom line, again to keep perpetuating. As such they garner the most of the profit. And why shouldn't they - they've risked their savings and pledged their hardwork to get it going - whereas an employee just walks in and can walk out whenever they'd like. A shitty business owner who doesn't treat workers well will find themselves out of business soon. Why? Because another clever person will come along and find a way to make the same product better and/or the shitty owner will not be able to keep good employees.

As for inheriting money... If I work for 30 years and save my money and do the right thing in life...you better believe I want that money to go to a person of my choice. If I could make 10 billion so my future generations would never have to worry about money - Warren Buffet I am not, I would do so.

[wicked_c6]

Originally Posted by Broken Wind

Is that really your view of the world? People with money got there by taking advantage of others? Really?

You know, I have a twenty-something stepson you need to meet. He lives in his dad's basement too.

In all sincerity, the only people I have ever known who think like that are those who made some horrendous choices in life and resent everyone and anyone who has it better than them. If this describes you, I will not even piss on your head.

Every company I've ever worked for has treated me well when times were well. I've received bonuses when work was done well. I've received Christmas presents, discounts on products they make, company cars, etc. Those are the companies I spent the most time with and worked the hardest for. I developed systems that saved them millions. The other companies (2) I've worked for treated their employees shitty, didn't pay the going rate for the skills provided, screwed employees on overtime, etc. Guess how long I stayed there? Not long and that was too bad as I had ideas to streamline their companies as well. Neither did the other talented people there - they all left when one of the guys started a company doing what the poorly run company did. And all those good workers came to work for them. See how that works? Again, personal choice. Don't like your surroundings? Use your legs, find another spot to rest yourself.

z06 - if you really think that, then someone, somewhere has really done you wrong. True to life there are businesses that crap on their employees - and you hear all about it in the news. However, there are companies that bend over backwards to keep their employees happy. I've been at many of them...its just a matter of finding one that fits.

If you don't mind me asking - how old are you?

Broken - your last statement rings quite true. My brother in law, and sister in law are like this. They both dropped out of college to travel around Europe. Came back and never returned to school. Lived way beyond their means. Had kids before they were 25, etc etc. Lets just say years of dumb choices.

Everytime I see them I get little digs of, "Well you make so much why don't you do X for them." or something to dig in that I have made alot more of myself. I never forget to remind them of the crappy choices they made, and then the good choices I had made. I always end with..."Its not to late. You are only 31 - go back and finish your degree." And yet they never do.

[RetiredSFC 97]

Originally Posted by wicked_c6

Its called personal responsibility...something that is a dying breed. No one wants to earn, work, and climb their way up the ladders. I see it everyday in hiring people for my dept. Fresh out of college, zero work experience, basic education - but expect to be hired on at 50k a year and balk when they get an offer of 35k. It takes hardwork and effort to get ahead in life. And even then life ain't fair...and its never going to be. Some people have more...some less - but 99.9% of the time (not always) the person with the more sacrificed early in life (either in completing advanced education, not buying new things, etc) so they could build themselves up.

As for "fair taxes". Lets suppose we have 2 families. One makes a million a year...the other 50k. The 50k family (most likely) with all their deductions received back money every year or pay 2k tops. The person who makes a million is in a 35-38% tax bracket...but lets say they have a good accountant and they reduce the tax load to 20%. Thats still 200k in paid taxes. One paid nothing...one pays 200k? Is it the fault of the millionaire that the 50k person isn't a millionaire? Not in my book.

As an example of most small business owners I'll use my FIL. He started his company in 1983 with little more than 5k in funds and 1 assistant. In 28 years he's gone from 1 million in sales to 120 million. However, during that 28 years there were ups and downs. There were years he didn't make a dime of personal income. He drove 8 year old used cars. Didn't go out to dinner. Didn't take vacations. Downsized to a modest house and so on.

Now that he's in the 100 million sales bracket life is very good financially. I don't begrudge him for his fortunes. He worked at his life and took himself from nothing to quite a bit.

Most people who are living paycheck to paycheck seemingly cause it themselves. I know this because I used to live that way. In my earlier years I made 50k a year... But had a huge apartment, all the latest toys, full cable, cell phone, gym membership, brand new car every few years. It was unsustainable...and I knew that. So...what did I do? I woke up and realized I can't get ahead short term and not look at the long term.

I downsized my apt to a 1 bdr, traded in my BMW for a used Cherokee with 100k miles, dropped cable, lowered my cell plan, and cut every expense I could. I used that extra money to start saving. I went back to school (while working 60 hours a week) and finished my masters and several certifications that made me more marketable (and thus provided a higher income). It was a sacrifice. I could have kept on living beyond the means I had...like most families do. I made a choice though...I sacrificed my short term wants for my long term needs.

Again...personal responsibilities...

Whenever I hear a Dem (or non Dem) bitch about people who make alot of money I instantly see them as jealous. Jealous that someone makes that much and they don't. Someone who has the finer things and they don't. But yet when you try and make them see "why" they got ahead, it falls on deaf ears. Why? The jealous person just wanted it all for nothing. He has it...so should I. Reminds me of this updated classic... cheesy I know...but pretty much sums things up. I didn't prepare myself for life, thus you must prepare for me.



And one final thought for the resident "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their need" crowd.

I know many arab americans here locally in Michigan. I have a very good friend who owns the gas station down the street from my house. He came from Yemen with barely 1k in his pocket, a rusty command of english, and a family of 5. I asked him his story over beers one night. He worked for 15 years doing 3 jobs, went to night school (community ed) to learn english and business skills...then after saving up 100k over those 15 years purchased a station. He now owns 4 and is doing quite well.

My moral of my long winded post? You want something...go out and fecking work hard for it. Otherwise STFU, get back in your cubicle, and continue your hate for people who have more than you.

Assuming one has the brains.


There is absolutely no reason for anyone not to succeed to the level they wish.

If that wasn't true there would be no wealthy people, especially to include musicians, actors and such.

I truly believe those on the left who are socialists actually believe everyone else is to stupid to do what they have accomplished. But yet they don't want to help, they want to take from others.

pitiful.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Broken Wind

Is that really your view of the world? People with money got there by taking advantage of others? Really?

You know, I have a twenty-something stepson you need to meet. He lives in his dad's basement too.

In all sincerity, the only people I have ever known who think like that are those who made some horrendous choices in life and resent everyone and anyone who has it better than them. If this describes you, I will not even piss on your head.

you're trying to put words in my mouth. very typical when you [like the rest] have been programmed to say these "catch phrases" by the People That Tell You How to Think. read my lips: there is nothing wrong with being wealthy. you guy's favorite saying is "when has a poor man given you a job?" let me ask you when has a wealthy man made it on his own? Admit the obvious. most wealth was built by the labor of others or inherited. people that make millions by gambling on the stock market don't contribute shit to our economy. I'm very happy with my life choices,thanks for your concern. I am in the top 5% of wage earners & my company Union Pacific RR just had a record year in a recession. BTW Warren Buffet is a railroader now [BNSF]& he adheres to the belief that the rich are undertaxed. you DO know who the Oracle of Omaha AKA the Most Successful Capitalist of Our Time is,no?

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by wicked_c6

- Warren Buffet I am not.

[wicked_c6]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

you're trying to put words in my mouth. very typical when you [like the rest] have been programmed to say these "catch phrases" by the People That Tell You How to Think. read my lips: there is nothing wrong with being wealthy. you guy's favorite saying is "when has a poor man given you a job?" let me ask you when has a wealthy man made it on his own? Admit the obvious. most wealth was built by the labor of others or inherited. people that make millions by gambling on the stock market don't contribute shit to our economy. I'm very happy with my life choices,thanks for your concern. I am in the top 5% of wage earners & my company Union Pacific RR just had a record year in a recession. BTW Warren Buffet is a railroader now [BNSF]& he adheres to the belief that the rich are undertaxed. you DO know who the Oracle of Omaha AKA the Most Successful Capitalist of Our Time is,no?

I'll let you continue being dickish...as by reviewing your post that seems to be your M.O. I'll choose another path...as I respect your view - though I disagree with how you arrive to it. BTW your post heavily implies that people who have wealth attained it by either not earning it, or through some other nefarious way. So its not really putting words in your mouth...but maybe the way you write it had another meaning.

ALL wealth was built on the backs of others. ALL. It is what drives economies. Its what builds nations. It is the reason why people strive to be greater - and keeps innovation alive. Again, otherwise why would people do more than they had to to survive?

People who make millions by gambling on the stock market do contribute to the economy. They take those millions and buy an insane amount of high dollar items that keeps the rest of the economy humming along. It employs people to build their houses. Make their cars and so on. And somewhere in there a single guy will start a company that services that stock market millionaire in some way (lets say home audio or by creating a building company) and that person will be the next millionaire on the block. Again, take a step back and see the larger picture play out. There will always be people who feck other people in business and in life. Be wary and it will happen seldom.

Congrats to you and the top 5% thing... I'm happy when someone makes it ahead in life. Conversely though - do you think the lineman (or whatever it is) that pounds spikes into tracks should make what you make? Provided you are more educated, have been there longer, and are more in demand than a guy who can strike a hammer to a nail.

I respect WB opinion on taxes though respectfully disagree. He can have that opinion when he makes untold billions. He also isn't going to leave any of it to his children. Which I respect - but disagree on why he would do it. However it is his fortune to do as he wishes with. However, I'll point out the irony that there is nothing stopping Mr Buffet from donating his billions to the Govt right now. He doesn't need to wait for Congress to raise taxes. He can do it now...and without penalty.

No one provides my "thoughts". I have many...some are liberal...most are conservative. However, I don't disparage someone for their thinking. But I do for their lack of understanding on why they think a certain way.

I couldn't disagree more on your comment about wealthy making it on their own. Though maybe I'm misinterpreting it. I gather that to mean that people who are wealthy didn't earn it or were dropped into it. I think that is a very small percentage of average America that this happens to. Though I could probably research a bit and find out...its kind of a broad statement for you to make. Kinda like saying all black people like grape koolaid. Some might...but not all of them. Most large companies started out very small. Usually with the owner toiling away for years. Yes, there's the lucky few that invent something that go from rags to riches...but I would venture that a small percentage.

I am quite familiar with Warren and Berkshire. I own their stock.

Your posts do confuse me though. You say there is nothing wrong with being wealthy...yet as you go on...your post says only bad things about the wealthy and how they attained wealth. Which is it? And what are these phrases other people tell me to think? I didn't get that memo yet.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by wicked_c6

I'll let you continue being dickish...as by reviewing your post that seems to be your M.O. I'll choose another path...as I respect your view - though I disagree with how you arrive to it. BTW your post heavily implies that people who have wealth attained it by either not earning it, or through some other nefarious way. So its not really putting words in your mouth...but maybe the way you write it had another meaning.

ALL wealth was built on the backs of others. ALL. It is what drives economies. Its what builds nations. It is the reason why people strive to be greater - and keeps innovation alive. Again, otherwise why would people do more than they had to to survive?

People who make millions by gambling on the stock market do contribute to the economy. They take those millions and buy an insane amount of high dollar items that keeps the rest of the economy humming along. It employs people to build their houses. Make their cars and so on. And somewhere in there a single guy will start a company that services that stock market millionaire in some way (lets say home audio or by creating a building company) and that person will be the next millionaire on the block. Again, take a step back and see the larger picture play out. There will always be people who feck other people in business and in life. Be wary and it will happen seldom.

Congrats to you and the top 5% thing... I'm happy when someone makes it ahead in life. Conversely though - do you think the lineman (or whatever it is) that pounds spikes into tracks should make what you make? Provided you are more educated, have been there longer, and are more in demand than a guy who can strike a hammer to a nail.

I respect WB opinion on taxes though respectfully disagree. He can have that opinion when he makes untold billions. He also isn't going to leave any of it to his children. Which I respect - but disagree on why he would do it. However it is his fortune to do as he wishes with. However, I'll point out the irony that there is nothing stopping Mr Buffet from donating his billions to the Govt right now. He doesn't need to wait for Congress to raise taxes. He can do it now...and without penalty.

No one provides my "thoughts". I have many...some are liberal...most are conservative. However, I don't disparage someone for their thinking. But I do for their lack of understanding on why they think a certain way.

I couldn't disagree more on your comment about wealthy making it on their own. Though maybe I'm misinterpreting it. I gather that to mean that people who are wealthy didn't earn it or were dropped into it. I think that is a very small percentage of average America that this happens to. Though I could probably research a bit and find out...its kind of a broad statement for you to make. Kinda like saying all black people like grape koolaid. Some might...but not all of them. Most large companies started out very small. Usually with the owner toiling away for years. Yes, there's the lucky few that invent something that go from rags to riches...but I would venture that a small percentage.

I am quite familiar with Warren and Berkshire. I own their stock.

Your posts do confuse me though. You say there is nothing wrong with being wealthy...yet as you go on...your post says only bad things about the wealthy and how they attained wealth. Which is it? And what are these phrases other people tell me to think? I didn't get that memo yet.

sorry you have to call names. I didn't do that, but I can do it with the best of them if you really want to go there. I'm glad you admit that wealth is built on the backs of others. at least we have common ground there. I repeat my statement about nothing being wrong with wealth & I'll reiterate my point about the fact that it's time for them to pay up & help our nation. history has shown us the best economies are the ones when the rich were heavily taxed. I'm going to shit no one. I'm paid well because of my union thus the "top 5%", but that's another thread. you know exactly what I mean by the People That Tell You How to Think.

[Broken Wind]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Sorry. No.

You stated very matter of factly:

"people with money" shouldn't be "ashamed" for having money. they should be ashamed for the fact that they made it off the backs of other hard working,loyal people or inherited it & when the SHTF they piss on their heads

There is no need to put words in your mouth. You said them, you own them.

Wicked has already addressed the fact that virtually no one becomes wealthy on his own. But you interpret that to mean that no one becomes wealthy without "screwing the little guy". Well, BULLSHIT.

You are tipping your hand. You need to hold it closer to your chest.

[Broken Wind]

Holy cow. A union guy is lecturing us on wealth creation.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Broken Wind

Sorry. No.

You stated very matter of factly:


There is no need to put words in your mouth. You said them, you own them.

Wicked has already addressed the fact that virtually no one becomes wealthy on his own. But you interpret that to mean that no one becomes wealthy without "screwing the little guy". Well, BULLSHIT.

You are tipping your hand. You need to hold it closer to your chest.

ok, now you're just out & out lying. "screwing the little guy" are your words. cut the petty bullshit.this isn't Grumpy's shithole.

[wicked_c6]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

sorry you have to call names. I didn't do that, but I can do it with the best of them if you really want to go there. I'm glad you admit that wealth is built on the backs of others. at least we have common ground there. I repeat my statement about nothing being wrong with wealth & I'll reiterate my point about the fact that it's time for them to pay up & help our nation. history has shown us the best economies are the ones when the rich were heavily taxed. I'm going to shit no one. I'm paid well because of my union thus the "top 5%", but that's another thread. you know exactly what I mean by the People That Tell You How to Think.

I simply call them as I see them. When your posts are full of defensive jabs - well nevermind. My apologies for name calling.

There was nothing to admit. If someone doesn't know that...then they aren't very smart. But its a necessary thing and I certainly don't see it as a negative. Some people are meant to lead...some are meant to follow. I respect each for different reasons.

Which economies are you speaking of that are heavily taxed and are the best?

Unions do have benefits then I'm glad to hear it. You didn't answer my question though - do you think the guy driving that hammer and nail deserve what you make? Keeping in mind you want to make sure your company stays in business?

I still have no clue as to what these People Who Make My Thinking are. Are you referring to Fox News? Rush LImbaugh? And all those types? If so, they are one aspect of my news source. I also DVR Rachel Maddow, Ed show, and a few other shows. I like to listen to all the perspectives and then make my decision based on all that has been presented. Listening to only one source is (as you know) not going to give you an informed opinion. I disagree at times with everyone I listed...but I sure do get a more complete picture to form my opinion.

Again...I respect your thoughts on the matter. I just think that blaming the rich (which if you are the top 5% - you are "the evil rich") or making statements that most businesses are corrupt or screw people is a broad generalization. I think its quite the opposite.

At any rate... Good convo.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Broken Wind

Holy cow. A union guy is lecturing us on wealth creation.

I have as much credibility as a ****in' Ditto Head.

[wicked_c6]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

ok, now you're just out & out lying. "screwing the little guy" are your words. cut the petty bullshit.this isn't Grumpy's shithole.

Again...its the way your posts imply what you are saying. In reading your posts I think an average person lib or con would see it as you have an issue with rich people not paying their "fair" share...and with businesses that feck the little guy in order to profit.

He just made it more apparent by summing it up. I dunno...

[Broken Wind]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

ok, now you're just out & out lying. "screwing the little guy" are your words. cut the petty bullshit.this isn't Grumpy's shithole.

Here's your chance, buddy.

they should be ashamed for the fact that they made it off the backs of other hard working,loyal people or inherited it

How is a reasonable man to interpret this? If I'm wrong, tell me how.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by wicked_c6

I simply call them as I see them. When your posts are full of defensive jabs - well nevermind. My apologies for name calling.
fair enough.
There was nothing to admit. If someone doesn't know that...then they aren't very smart. But its a necessary thing and I certainly don't see it as a negative. Some people are meant to lead...some are meant to follow. I respect each for different reasons.
I never said it was a negative. it's reality & I'm glad you admit it.
Which economies are you speaking of that are heavily taxed and are the best?
the Eisenhower years. wages & the economy grew like never before. it was a great time. I was there. yep,I'm ancient.
Unions do have benefits then I'm glad to hear it. You didn't answer my question though - do you think the guy driving that hammer and nail deserve what you make? Keeping in mind you want to make sure your company stays in business?
that guy driving the hammer does make what I do if not more.
I still have no clue as to what these People Who Make My Thinking are. Are you referring to Fox News? Rush LImbaugh? And all those types? If so, they are one aspect of my news source. I also DVR Rachel Maddow, Ed show, and a few other shows. I like to listen to all the perspectives and then make my decision based on all that has been presented. Listening to only one source is (as you know) not going to give you an informed opinion. I disagree at times with everyone I listed...but I sure do get a more complete picture to form my opinion.
sorry, but I don't hear any Maddow in your thinking. that's ok though. you just reaffirmed my belief in who's opinions you tend to adhere to.
Again...I respect your thoughts on the matter. I just think that blaming the rich (which if you are the top 5% - you are "the evil rich") or making statements that most businesses are corrupt or screw people is a broad generalization. I think its quite the opposite.

At any rate... Good convo.

I'm "blaming" no one. I [like people like Buffet] just thnk the wealthy need to pay more.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Broken Wind

Here's your chance, buddy.



How is a reasonable man to interpret this? If I'm wrong, tell me how.

a *reasonable* man will interpret it for what it is. the truth. even you admit it. BTW you omitted the rest of the sentence to try to make your lie work. it didn't.