The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[Rob]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

When Tesla started taking ORDERS... not just listing advertisements, TAKING ORDERS, there was a $39,900 base price listed. Those people were brought in the door by a <$40,000 truck. They were forced to either buy something that cost over twice as much or lose their spot. And yes, he's now selling the expensive ones because people with buy them. Everybody who was duped into the $40k version got absolutely screwed.

Not really, everyone put down a $100 reservation and can ask for it back.

Not as big deal

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

No. It was exactly the same. It has been the same since the beginning of time. Since the first time anybody sold anything. Ever. Dealers are only as "nice on the price" as they have to be to make a sale. That doesn't change. It never has. In an up market, a down market, any market. Dealers make as much as they can on a sale. Period.



That is an excellent attempt at a deflection.

Elon lured people in with a lower price and sold them something more expensive because he could.

When Tesla started taking ORDERS... not just listing advertisements, TAKING ORDERS, there was a $39,900 base price listed. Those people were brought in the door by a <$40,000 truck. They were forced to either buy something that cost over twice as much or lose their spot. And yes, he's now selling the expensive ones because people with buy them. Everybody who was duped into the $40k version got absolutely screwed.

Are you actually defending that while at the same time saying how bad a dealer is for a listing not pulled down immediately???

https://www.motortrend.com/news/elon...rice-increase/

Yea. Those evil dealers and Saint Elon.



Just to clarify. You want laws passed, including laws that limit privately held websites, paper print, radio and TV ads. You want laws passed that regulate search engine results... to save you time shopping for a car.

Nobody made an order for a Cybertruck back then. You made a reservation, a spot in line. There is something called COVID that happened, causing a supply chain crisis and inflation. It costs a lot more to build a car now than in 2019 due to those unforeseen circumstances.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Rob

Not really, everyone put down a $100 reservation and can ask for it back.

Not as big deal

You’re missing the context of the comment.

Yea. You get your $100 back. Great. Doesn’t change the fact that what was advertised doesn’t exist… but you can buy something twice as expensive.

The context that you’re missing is a guy that has no problem with that but wants to censor and regulate the entire internet to prevent people being “misled” by some hypothetical car that took too long to cycle out of listings on 3rd party websites and is no longer available.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Nobody made an order for a Cybertruck back then. You made a reservation, a spot in line. There is something called COVID that happened, causing a supply chain crisis and inflation. It costs a lot more to build a car now than in 2019 due to those unforeseen circumstances.

Oh. You just made a reservation. How much "valuable time" did people waste doing that?

A customer was lured in with the expectation and promise of a $40,000 "truck" that Elon couldn't deliver. Rather than making the cheaper versions he is now... IN YOUR WORDS... "milking" the market and only producing the $$$ versions.

It's just a smart business move. Milk it while you can get $$$ for the truck.

Tesla has constantly increased price while decreasing promised capabilities (range). He promised a $40,000 truck to get sales. Bullshit. Elon promised 500 mile range. Bullshit. Let me guess... the Cyber"truck" doesn't go 500 miles because Covid?

Here, let me refresh your memory.





It wasn't Covid that stopped the $40k version. It was the f**king reality of manufacturing. Elon made shit up without any basis of fact behind it in order to sell vehicles. But hey, the good news is that at some point in the future, you may be able to spend an additional $16,000(*), take up a huge chunk of the bed with another massive ass battery pack, add almost 1,000 pounds of weight which will without question decrease all of those acceleration numbers that you love so much, and then, maybe you can get slightly closer to the range that he originally said it would have.

Somehow in your mind, THAT, along with continued price increases (because Elon can't seem to figure out what production costs)... is perfectly ok, but the natural cycle of database updates that causes a delay in listings being removed from 3rd party websites such as Autotrader is immoral, unethical, misleading, and (in addition to how filters are applied to search engines) should be regulated by the federal government.

Even if the magical range extender was available today, there is no way possible to get the advertised range, the advertised cargo room, and the advertised "performance" simultaneously. But no worries... I'm sure it's all spelled out in the fine print. Definitely not misleading at all.

[RedLS1GTO]

And to be very clear, I don't care how much Elon oversold the "truck". It's marketing. If you're stupid enough to buy something years in advance based on a bunch of promises, you deserve whatever comes your way.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Because of the wording:

Vehicles subject to prior sale.Prices do NOT include any dealer add-ons or Fees.SanTanFord not responsible for any misprinted and/or typo errors. Rebates and incentives may be included in price already. Internet Price may not include dealer installed accessories.

Why does that mean you can't buy it for the price advertised?

Yes, it "could" mean you can't, but it is not definite. Go in and offer the listed price. They'll say yes or no.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Oh. You just made a reservation. How much "valuable time" did people waste doing that?

A customer was lured in with the expectation and promise of a $40,000 "truck" that Elon couldn't deliver. Rather than making the cheaper versions he is now... IN YOUR WORDS... "milking" the market and only producing the $$$ versions.



Tesla has constantly increased price while decreasing promised capabilities (range). He promised a $40,000 truck to get sales. Bullshit. Elon promised 500 mile range. Bullshit. Let me guess... the Cyber"truck" doesn't go 500 miles because Covid?

Here, let me refresh your memory.





It wasn't Covid that stopped the $40k version. It was the f**king reality of manufacturing. Elon made shit up without any basis of fact behind it in order to sell vehicles. But hey, the good news is that at some point in the future, you may be able to spend an additional $16,000(*), take up a huge chunk of the bed with another massive ass battery pack, add almost 1,000 pounds of weight which will without question decrease all of those acceleration numbers that you love so much, and then, maybe you can get slightly closer to the range that he originally said it would have.

Somehow in your mind, THAT, along with continued price increases (because Elon can't seem to figure out what production costs)... is perfectly ok, but the natural cycle of database updates that causes a delay in listings being removed from 3rd party websites such as Autotrader is immoral, unethical, misleading, and (in addition to how filters are applied to search engines) should be regulated by the federal government.

Even if the magical range extender was available today, there is no way possible to get the advertised range, the advertised cargo room, and the advertised "performance" simultaneously. But no worries... I'm sure it's all spelled out in the fine print. Definitely not misleading at all.

Same happened to Fisker.. Where is the $39990 Fisker Ocean
Same happened to Ford.. Where is the $39990 F150 Lightning

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricveh...974_price_tag/

https://www.motor1.com/news/508435/2...ghtning-debut/


https://www.caranddriver.com/fisker/ocean

EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER was affected!

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

And to be very clear, I don't care how much Elon oversold the "truck". It's marketing. If you're stupid enough to buy something years in advance based on a bunch of promises, you deserve whatever comes your way.

All you had to give for a spot in line was $100 fully refundable deposit. Nobody is being harmed.. It's not like people put thousands of $$ down to get the car.. It was $100 only.

[Onebadcad]

Where do I send my $100 to get on the Roadster list??

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

All you had to give for a spot in line was $100 fully refundable deposit. Nobody is being harmed.. It's not like people put thousands of $$ down to get the car.. It was $100 only.

And no one is harmed by the advertising that you despise.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

And no one is harmed by the advertising that you despise.

The goal is to lure people to the dealership. Once there, sales people are masters of deception and they play inexperienced buyers like a fiddle.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The goal is to lure people to the dealership. Once there, sales people are masters of deception and they play inexperienced buyers like a fiddle.

Are you new here?

Every advertisement for every product is to lure the customer to the product. DUH!

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The goal is to lure people to the dealership. Once there, sales people are masters of deception and they play inexperienced buyers like a fiddle.

Wait, what??? The goal of advertising is to get people to shop for something? Huh, who knew?

So, what new law would prevent sales people from being the "masters of deception?" If you were King for a day, how - exactly - would you put a stop to that?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

All you had to give for a spot in line was $100 fully refundable deposit. Nobody is being harmed.. It's not like people put thousands of $$ down to get the car.. It was $100 only.

...and all you had to do was sit on your ass and read what was written in the ad. It didn't cost you a dime. Nobody is being harmed. It's not like people put thousands of $$ down to get a car. It was $0 only.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The goal is to lure people to the dealership. Once there, sales people are masters of deception and they play inexperienced buyers like a fiddle.

Just curious... if not to "lure people to" buying, what would you say was the goal of Elon's presentation?

You know, the 1 where he broke the unbreakable windows. The 1 where he claimed it would be $40,000 and have a 500 mile range.

You conveniently skipped that 500 mile part. Was that also because of Covid, or did he lie to get people to get in line to buy his truck?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Are you new here?

Every advertisement for every product is to lure the customer to the product. DUH!

Sure, but doing so by misleading or attempting to mislead is not ok in my book..

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The goal is to lure people to the dealership. Once there, sales people are masters of deception and they play inexperienced buyers like a fiddle.

"Masters of deception"

Holy shit. Sales people at dealerships are normal f**king people who sell cars. They are already required by law to quite literally show you every single penny of the deal.

Car sales is the most transparent industry there is. From the financing aspect to any of the add-ons, no matter how valuable or worthless they may be, absolutely every penny has to be accounted of on the sales paperwork. Every customer has it in front of them to read and to sign.

If you are so catastrophically stupid that you have every number in front of you, STILL don't know what it means, and get "played like a fiddle", you shouldn't be buying a car without help in the first place.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Wait, what??? The goal of advertising is to get people to shop for something? Huh, who knew?

So, what new law would prevent sales people from being the "masters of deception?" If you were King for a day, how - exactly - would you put a stop to that?

1) require ads for a vehicle to have a price
2) that price can't have any conditional discounts taken out of. Available discounts with eligibility criteria should be listed in the ad
3) the price can have discounts taken out (like factory rebate) that every buyer can get.
4) any dealer add ons have to be included in the listed price

There should be no car ads without a price listed.

Why would anyone not wanting to mislead people be opposed to that?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

...and all you had to do was sit on your ass and read what was written in the ad. It didn't cost you a dime. Nobody is being harmed. It's not like people put thousands of $$ down to get a car. It was $0 only.

How many people really read through every page in a contract, ever word? How many go through all line items in all documents they sign when getting a new vehicle? Sales people can sneak things in and hope that the person signing the contract doesn't read or misses the things that they sneaked in.
I rented houses to many people over the years and I never saw anyone really read through all the 5 pages of the contract. I could have sneaked things in if I wanted but I'm an ethical person, so I don't do that.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Sure, but doing so by misleading or attempting to mislead is not ok in my book..

You mean like this?



Nobody is arguing in favor of misleading people. The problem is that you go completely the hell off the rails when you think that the government should restrict what is posted on private websites, regulate how search engine results are displayed, decide what constitutes "misleading" and should somehow be responsible for saving you the 30 seconds it takes you to read what is actually said.