The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Virtually the same = not the same. But nice try.

How very socialist of you.



If you don't want to pay over MSRP, don't.

Socialist.



You... knew it going in? So your argument is that the people who bought cars at that point in time for some reason didn't? The argument is that people buying cars at a point where demand far exceeded supply and market values were far above their normal levels... didn't know that they were going to lose money and somehow, that is the dealers responsibility?




There is truth in advertising. You quite literally f**king quoted the explanations in each of those listings as to how the price is determined.

Holy shit. They do post the "real" price. It's right f**king here. If you are too stupid to figure that out, I feel genuinely sorry for you.

The ad is misleading. It shows that you are saving $12k ob MSRP while in reality, this is condutional and therefore not true in most cases.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

“Fine print” has become a cultural cliche. One would think that every adult knows this. And especially concerning large ticket items.

Unfortunately, the majority of people are stupid and don't read the fine print. A huge amount of people fall for solar scams and they only find out that they got scammed when they pay the rental fee for the equipment for the rest of their life and that's more than their energy bill used to be. This is taking advantage of people's ignorance and car dealers do the same.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

You suck at libertarianism. Nobody was ripped off. Nobody can force me to buy a vehicle (although that seems to be changing and a different subject). Enough buyers wanted the vehicle more than their money, simple as that.



So basically, the car you wanted wasn't available AT ANY PRICE from that dealer.



Did I mention you suck at libertarianism?



So the only rent increases you've ever had were to cover increases in uncontrolled costs: taxes, insurance, repairs? Never an adjustment, up or down, due to market conditions?

Do you think it's OK to charge more for plywood, gas, ice, food when a hurricane is approaching?



In times of short inventory, go to the Manufacturers website. If you dig, you can find a vehicle that a dealer bought but has not yet been delivered. Show up to the dealer as it is rolling off the transport truck, and make the deal. I got my RAM in early 2022 this way at MSRP if I financed. Financed it, made one payment and then paid it off. Cost a less than 0.1% over MSRP, meh.



This guy gets it. Willing buyer and willing seller determine price in a free market economy.

There is a difference between a free market and ripping people off. During COVID19, a few people bought up all the TP and then selling it for 10 times more on Amazon. They created a shortage to take advantage of the situation. That's not capitalism. That's criminal IMHO. If a billionaire sells a lot of the stock and then buys it back for a fraction that he sold it for after the crash he caused, he will be prosecuted. Same thing should happen for doing the same thing outside the stock marker. This is not capitalism. This is fraud.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

However, the fact that you need to effectively get a written contract from a Stealership before going to look at a car only reinforces GSC3's point: Stealerships are lying asshole pieces of shit.

I couldn't have finalized anything as I was not looking at a particular car. They had a few Ioniq 5 in stock and we wanted ti see which color combunation we liked. All that I wanted to know is if they have a mark up/market adjusent to see if it's worth doing the trip.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I would support a bill that requires honesty in advertised prices. "Price includes all applicable rebates". So, in some cases, you have to be a full time student and in the military and a firefighter as well to get all discounts. You see how absurd that is? Dealers should be required to advertise the price that anyone qualifies for and the list possible discounts in the ad. Nobody should oppose that unless they want to mislead customers.

Nope I would not support.

If one is stupid and does not understand new car advertising then maybe that person shouldn’t be buying one, or driving at all.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I would support a bill that requires honesty in advertised prices. "Price includes all applicable rebates". So, in some cases, you have to be a full time student and in the military and a firefighter as well to get all discounts. You see how absurd that is? Dealers should be required to advertise the price that anyone qualifies for and the list possible discounts in the ad. Nobody should oppose that unless they want to mislead customers.

That part I agree with. Just as I read in the "fine print" that the price assumes I'll be trading in something and financing, I should be able to read that this price assumes I qualify for every mfg rebate possible, which, is statistically IMpossible.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Nope I would not support.

If one is stupid and does not understand new car advertising then maybe that person shouldn’t be buying one, or driving at all.

Taking advantage of ignorant people to make money is not ok in my book. Many dealers are counting in ignorant people to make a killing.
I have walked away from dealerships several times after they tried to rip me off. I do read the fine print and that's why I cought them doing it.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by bill_daniels

That part I agree with. Just as I read in the "fine print" that the price assumes I'll be trading in something and financing, I should be able to read that this price assumes I qualify for every mfg rebate possible, which, is statistically IMpossible.

Unfortunately, many people are not smart to catch it. All I'm in favor is standardizing the list price to be consistent among all ads. The only discounts subtracted from a price are the ones everyone qualifies for.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I couldn't have finalized anything as I was not looking at a particular car. They had a few Ioniq 5 in stock and we wanted ti see which color combunation we liked. All that I wanted to know is if they have a mark up/market adjusent to see if it's worth doing the trip.

And you didn’t have anything in writing that answered your question so you took the risk of showing up at the dealership.
Not a big deal if it’s across town.
Pisses you off if you drive a couple hours.
Sucks.
Not the dealers fault.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by LATB

Nope I would not support.

If one is stupid and does not understand new car advertising then maybe that person shouldn’t be buying one, or driving at all.

I disagree. A dealer should have to disclose how they arrived at their advertised price with respect to mfg rebates.

I'd prefer to see something like, "price quoted assumes buyer qualifies for x,y, and z mfg rebates. Check with dealer to see what you qualify for."

Would you not agree that tossing up a make believe price that no one on the planet would "qualify" for is the very definition of a deceptive trade practice?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by bill_daniels

I disagree. A dealer should have to disclose how they arrived at their advertised price with respect to mfg rebates.

I'd prefer to see something like, "price quoted assumes buyer qualifies for x,y, and z mfg rebates. Check with dealer to see what you qualify for."

Would you not agree that tossing up a make believe price that no one on the planet would "qualify" for is the very definition of a deceptive trade practice?

I believe the dealer ads already do exactly what you have articulated.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Unfortunately, many people are not smart to catch it. All I'm in favor is standardizing the list price to be consistent among all ads. The only discounts subtracted from a price are the ones everyone qualifies for.

Are you going to want McDonalds and Burger King to do the same comrade?

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

I'm disappointed in you Aero. You need to think more about this.

This is a $400 lesson in making sure your spare is serviceable and that you have an little extra snack for yourself and the kiddos in case of traffic, accident, flat tire. It's called personal responsibility.

If I refuse to fix the flat for for less than $400 and she refuses to pay $400, and no one else is around to fix the flat, guess what happens?

I'll ask the next car accident victim if they are willing to pay me a thousand dollars to pull them from the wreck. Otherwise, I hope someone else comes along. Market value, right? They should have avoided the accident, or went a different way.

Shit happens and only a shitbag preys on people in need.

[Kevin68]

TP during covid was a media-created panic. Some entrepreneurial individuals took a risk, spent their own money, stored and shipped TP to people who are too stupid to keep a reasonable supply of necessities in their house. If not for these entrepreneurs, some people would have gone without TP or they would have bought a toilet seat bidet, or they would have taken a shit at the corner store, or....

I get that they didn't want to pay 10X for TP, but in a free society nobody is entitled to static pricing. If the media and gov't wouldn't have accused them of price gouging, Charmin probably would have willingly stepped up production and shipments (at less than optimal efficiency) to meet demand. Did rationing by retailers put any more TP on the shelves? It just created daily or weekly mini-panics at significant cost in time and effort and if you were lucky, you got a 1 week reprieve.

You don't understand how the stock market (or apparently any market) works. The billionaire can't sell $1BN of stock at peak price because the market will recognize the sudden glut of shares for sale and the price comes down. When he starts buying, he can only buy a few shares at rock bottom pricing. The market will respond to the sudden demand with higher prices. The stock market is near perfect with electronic trading because the price for any equity literally changes by the second.

You know what the dealers' marketing strategies are, yet you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge when it's happening to you. Face it, you don't want to do the work to understand the details. You want them to spoon feed it to you and government to force them to do it. That's disgusting.

They are trying to get as much as they can for each car, and you are trying to get it at the lowest price possible. If you can't agree on price, guess who goes without the car? If they want your money more than the car, you get the car. This is not a difficult concept.

You and Aero should trade in your Free Market Participant card for the government-issued Nanny Socialist Card.

[Kevin68]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

I'll ask the next car accident victim if they are willing to pay me a thousand dollars to pull them from the wreck. Otherwise, I hope someone else comes along. Market value, right? They should have avoided the accident, or went a different way.

Shit happens and only a shitbag preys on people in need.

Would be cheaper than a government ambulance ride, but they would give up some expertise for my discount.

If I own a shop and have promised delivery of vehicles to other customers, yes it costs extra to rearrange cars, techs, schedules. $20 isn't enough to risk pissing off current customers.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

And you didn’t have anything in writing that answered your question so you took the risk of showing up at the dealership.
Not a big deal if it’s across town.
Pisses you off if you drive a couple hours.
Sucks.
Not the dealers fault.

Not the dealers fault that they lied?? I asked a very clear question. They will tell you anything to get you into the door so that they can play their game. Unfortunately, too many stupid people fall for their game. There's a sucker born every minute and dealerships know that. Sure, you can say that it's people's own fault that they are ignorant and fall for those sales tactics but I think that people shouldn't be misled.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Are you going to want McDonalds and Burger King to do the same comrade?

Hmmm, aren't they doing it already? I mean, the prices you pay always match the prices on the display... Not sure where McD or BK mislead people??

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

TP during covid was a media-created panic. Some entrepreneurial individuals took a risk, spent their own money, stored and shipped TP to people who are too stupid to keep a reasonable supply of necessities in their house. If not for these entrepreneurs, some people would have gone without TP or they would have bought a toilet seat bidet, or they would have taken a shit at the corner store, or....

I get that they didn't want to pay 10X for TP, but in a free society nobody is entitled to static pricing. If the media and gov't wouldn't have accused them of price gouging, Charmin probably would have willingly stepped up production and shipments (at less than optimal efficiency) to meet demand. Did rationing by retailers put any more TP on the shelves? It just created daily or weekly mini-panics at significant cost in time and effort and if you were lucky, you got a 1 week reprieve.

You don't understand how the stock market (or apparently any market) works. The billionaire can't sell $1BN of stock at peak price because the market will recognize the sudden glut of shares for sale and the price comes down. When he starts buying, he can only buy a few shares at rock bottom pricing. The market will respond to the sudden demand with higher prices. The stock market is near perfect with electronic trading because the price for any equity literally changes by the second.

You know what the dealers' marketing strategies are, yet you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge when it's happening to you. Face it, you don't want to do the work to understand the details. You want them to spoon feed it to you and government to force them to do it. That's disgusting.

They are trying to get as much as they can for each car, and you are trying to get it at the lowest price possible. If you can't agree on price, guess who goes without the car? If they want your money more than the car, you get the car. This is not a difficult concept.

You and Aero should trade in your Free Market Participant card for the government-issued Nanny Socialist Card.

Taking advantage of a panic and causing a shortage of certain items to make a profit is a form of market manipulation. If you engage in market manipulation of stocks, you go to jail. There is no punishment if you cause a shortage of necessities like TP. Luckily, at one point, several retailers created a purchase limit of certain items to help with the shortages. I'm 100% for a free market but taking advantage of suckers or people's necessities during a crisis is not ok in my book. Nobody should be taken advantage of to make a buck IMHO.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Not the dealers fault that they lied?? I asked a very clear question. They will tell you anything to get you into the door so that they can play their game. Unfortunately, too many stupid people fall for their game. There's a sucker born every minute and dealerships know that. Sure, you can say that it's people's own fault that they are ignorant and fall for those sales tactics but I think that people shouldn't be misled.

[Judge Judy] Do you have evidence that they lied? [Judge Judy]

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by LATB

I believe the dealer ads already do exactly what you have articulated.

They do.

Look at the example I posted. The MSRP, what he refers to as "the real price" is right at the top of the page. The entire explanation as to how the discounted price is achieved is clearly spelled out.

His argument is that people are lazy and no can reed gud.