Well...IRS is paid

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

oh, its EASY to destroy your attempt at an argument, its just not worth my time.

KenHorse already did. If you have ever voted in an election, you're a hypocrite.

or driven on a highway, used the internet, used public school...I could go on for days. The reality you're not a thinker you wouldn't post stupid quotes seen on twitter.

Spoken like a true lefty. I can so easily beat your argument, so easily in fact, that I choose not to even engage. Wow. Certainly, won that debate dude.

[Kevin68]

Originally Posted by KenHorse

How does that work for public safety?

At the Federal level, the same way it worked until 1913 and locally, the same it works today. Even California allows people to have private fire fighters and numerous famous people have private security...that they pay for without gov't assistance.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

🤣 right. Because what is a toll but a road usage tax.

Not even remotely close. It is a fee. You pay for your portion of usage. A tax, and particularly progressive taxes, is distorted and not proportional. You currently pay for the majority of Federal parks or Amtrak, or roads or...that you may use far less than your proportional taxation. You and your ilk would like to distribute those costs amongst your fellow citizens in the hope you get something for "free". Collectivism is at the heart of socialism and communism. Concentrated benefits, disbursed costs. Are you afraid to pay for your proportion of road construction and maintenance costs? Will the gov't or private industry be more efficient with the available funds?

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Where does the money come from to build the road to collect the tolls? Without taxes the govt has no income to get a loan or bond from 😂

Same place the money comes from that makes it possible for you to buy groceries, gas, clothing, computers...housing and cars (mostly). Private investors risking their own money.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

You taxation is theft people crack me up. Go find a first world county without any taxes. You won’t but Somalia comes to mind if that’s your idea of a tax free utopia.

I'm not sure this straw man deserves slaying. That you are trying make an equivalence between a country that does not recognize individual rights, property rights, comparative punishment or justice and exists solely to enrich its dictators to a country that purportedly does is laughable.

And to be clear, I am talking about federal taxes. Federal government clearly has some constitutional duties that need to be funded...common defense, administering justice, protecting individual rights from state or federal intrusions, border security, adjudicating tort and contract disputes...I'm willing to listen to ideas about how to fund those functions.

States have more regional functions and more freedom to experiment (in theory, if not for their addiction to other people's money). As we are currently seeing with national migration patterns, people are voting with their feet. This is a good thing.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

At the Federal level, the same way it worked until 1913 and locally, the same it works today. Even California allows people to have private fire fighters and numerous famous people have private security...that they pay for without gov't assistance.



Not even remotely close. It is a fee. You pay for your portion of usage. A tax, and particularly progressive taxes, is distorted and not proportional. You currently pay for the majority of Federal parks or Amtrak, or roads or...that you may use far less than your proportional taxation. You and your ilk would like to distribute those costs amongst your fellow citizens in the hope you get something for "free". Collectivism is at the heart of socialism and communism. Concentrated benefits, disbursed costs. Are you afraid to pay for your proportion of road construction and maintenance costs? Will the gov't or private industry be more efficient with the available funds?



Same place the money comes from that makes it possible for you to buy groceries, gas, clothing, computers...housing and cars (mostly). Private investors risking their own money.




I'm not sure this straw man deserves slaying. That you are trying make an equivalence between a country that does not recognize individual rights, property rights, comparative punishment or justice and exists solely to enrich its dictators to a country that purportedly does is laughable.

And to be clear, I am talking about federal taxes. Federal government clearly has some constitutional duties that need to be funded...common defense, administering justice, protecting individual rights from state or federal intrusions, border security, adjudicating tort and contract disputes...I'm willing to listen to ideas about how to fund those functions.

States have more regional functions and more freedom to experiment (in theory, if not for their addiction to other people's money). As we are currently seeing with national migration patterns, people are voting with their feet. This is a good thing.

Private emergency services I can tell you probably haven't traveled internationally much. Go to the Bahamas and call EMS, when they show up you better have cash in hand to pay or they will leave you in need. That sounds awesome.


You have completely flipped the argument. The quote was "taxation is theft" not "federal taxation is theft." So you're pro taxes just at the state level?

Investors? Go to the bank and try to borrow a few billion dollars without a current revenue stream and see how fast they laugh you out of the bank. The gov't can currently borrow b/c they have a revenue stream ie taxes, to show the ability to pay it back.

As far as your claim of strawman. No, when you have no taxes you see what you get. Western Sahara is another metropolis that doesn't tax its people...how is that working out? There are plenty of countries that don't charge income tax, have you visited one? You'll be quick to notice a 20+% VAT on everything you buy. The gov't is getting its money one way or another.

Again...name any civilization in history that thrived and became an empire without some sort of taxation system.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

Spoken like a true lefty. I can so easily beat your argument, so easily in fact, that I choose not to even engage. Wow. Certainly, won that debate dude.

Good grief...you are absolutely the stupidest person on this board.

Your only argument is to call someone a lefty b/c you lack the intellect to think of anything else as a retort.

You would have a very hard time being more conservative than me. The difference is I understand business and I don't copy memes from twitter and make them my talking points.

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Good grief...you are absolutely the stupidest person on this board.

Your only argument is to call someone a lefty b/c you lack the intellect to think of anything else as a retort.

You would have a very hard time being more conservative that me. The difference is I understand business and I don't copy memes from twitter and make them my talking points.

I think you have me confused with someone else. Especially because we've agreed on things in the past. I don't even have twitter (nor any social media, nor have I ever posted a link to any, and I recall only ever posting 4 meme's because they were hilarious.

You're the one who refused to engage because of your perceived "correct" stance. I just pointed out that this is a common tactic used by the left. I'm happy that you think I'm stupid...it just highlights to everyone else who reads posts here how disconnected from reality you can be.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Ronins2ndCuzzin

I think you have me confused with someone else. Especially because we've agreed on things in the past. I don't even have twitter (nor any social media, nor have I ever posted a link to any, and I recall only ever posting 4 meme's because they were hilarious.

You're the one who refused to engage because of your perceived "correct" stance. I just pointed out that this is a common tactic used by the left. I'm happy that you think I'm stupid...it just highlights to everyone else who reads posts here how disconnected from reality you can be.

Its good to hear that you have agreed with me on things in the past. If we have agreed then why would you call me a lefty? There is a reasoning breakdown there. Are you a lefty? I am certainly not.

The problem is you are as infected with identity politics as any liberal... you're just on the other side of the spectrum. That's why calling me a lefty is your only retort.

Here was our last interaction...to refresh your memory. Apparently, if someone likes a particular type of car, you hate them. Very logical and highly intellectual thought process. (BTW that was sarcasm)

[Ronins2ndCuzzin]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Its good to hear that you have agreed with me on things in the past. If we have agreed then why would you call me a lefty? There is a reasoning breakdown there. Are you a lefty? I am certainly not.

The problem is you are as infected with identity politics as any liberal... you're just on the other side of the spectrum. That's why calling me a lefty is your only retort.

Here was our last interaction...to refresh your memory. Apparently, if someone likes a particular type of car, you hate them. Very logical and highly intellectual thought process. (BTW that was sarcasm)

Speaking like one or using a common tactic from them shouldn't infer that I'm calling you one. If that's what you take from that, it's on you.

As far as the liking EVs thing...never said I hate those people. I said f*** them, and we can never be friends. There are very few people in this world that I will say that I "hate." I'm actually not a conservative, I'm a libertarian, but hey the FEDGOV considers us both terrorists anyways so I suppose there's common ground there.

[Kevin68]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Private emergency services I can tell you probably haven't traveled internationally much. Go to the Bahamas and call EMS, when they show up you better have cash in hand to pay or they will leave you in need. That sounds awesome.

Actually I have been on 5 continents and to more than a dozen foreign countries...including The Bahamas. I see nothing wrong with a demand for payment for emergency services I use. Here in the US you pay taxes for those services AND you get a bill.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

You have completely flipped the argument. The quote was "taxation is theft" not "federal taxation is theft." So you're pro taxes just at the state level?

Well, the original topic was federal income taxes so that's what I've been talking about. You were the one who broadened my argument. I sensed you were misunderstanding my position, hence my not-quite-correct attempt to clarify. My taxation-is-theft position is talking about federal income taxes (and would for state income taxes too but they don't apply in my case).

The case for local and state use taxes is stronger because: a) states have more freedom (constitutionally) to experiment with different funding schemes and services, b) if I disagree with the cost-benefit calculation I have a reasonable remedy and c) my representation is more direct and accessible rather than literally one in a million. I think that a supermajority of people would agree that police, fire and emergency services should be a shared expense (despite the fact that I think that privatization of those services can probably be accomplished with better results and at a lower cost). Perhaps the same is true for some local roads...although I live on a private road that my neighbors and I pay to maintain at a far lower cost than the county ever could.

Let me try this, what do you call it when you are forced to turn over a portion of your wages or property to someone who then uses it as they see fit or decides to give to someone else? Is there any legal or moral justification for this?

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Investors? Go to the bank and try to borrow a few billion dollars without a current revenue stream and see how fast they laugh you out of the bank. The gov't can currently borrow b/c they have a revenue stream ie taxes, to show the ability to pay it back.

Happens all the time. How do you think office buildings, apartments, utilities get built? Where do airlines get the money to buy 100 airplanes at a time? How did the railroads get built?

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

As far as your claim of strawman. No, when you have no taxes you see what you get. Western Sahara is another metropolis that doesn't tax its people...how is that working out? There are plenty of countries that don't charge income tax, have you visited one? You'll be quick to notice a 20+% VAT on everything you buy. The gov't is getting its money one way or another.

Of course they have to have money to operate. Even the shithole countries you list get their money from somewhere. A VAT at least is distributed in some proportion to your benefit and you have a degree of control over what you pay. I'm not a big fan of a VAT because, at least initially, would stagnate the economy.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Again...name any civilization in history that thrived and became an empire without some sort of taxation system.

The US had no income taxes prior to 1913 and we managed to thrive.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

Actually I have been on 5 continents and to more than a dozen foreign countries...including The Bahamas. I see nothing wrong with a demand for payment for emergency services I use. Here in the US you pay taxes for those services AND you get a bill.


Well, the original topic was federal income taxes so that's what I've been talking about. You were the one who broadened my argument. I sensed you were misunderstanding my position, hence my not-quite-correct attempt to clarify. My taxation-is-theft position is talking about federal income taxes (and would for state income taxes too but they don't apply in my case).

The case for local and state use taxes is stronger because: a) states have more freedom (constitutionally) to experiment with different funding schemes and services, b) if I disagree with the cost-benefit calculation I have a reasonable remedy and c) my representation is more direct and accessible rather than literally one in a million. I think that a supermajority of people would agree that police, fire and emergency services should be a shared expense (despite the fact that I think that privatization of those services can probably be accomplished with better results and at a lower cost). Perhaps the same is true for some local roads...although I live on a private road that my neighbors and I pay to maintain at a far lower cost than the county ever could.

Let me try this, what do you call it when you are forced to turn over a portion of your wages or property to someone who then uses it as they see fit or decides to give to someone else? Is there any legal or moral justification for this?



Happens all the time. How do you think office buildings, apartments, utilities get built? Where do airlines get the money to buy 100 airplanes at a time? How did the railroads get built?



Of course they have to have money to operate. Even the shithole countries you list get their money from somewhere. A VAT at least is distributed in some proportion to your benefit and you have a degree of control over what you pay. I'm not a big fan of a VAT because, at least initially, would stagnate the economy.



The US had no income taxes prior to 1913 and we managed to thrive.

Well thought out coherent arguments, unlike the other guy in this thread who simply posted this...

Taxation is theft. Period.

I took that exactly as he stated it, hence my argument.

I can promise you pay for service EMS does not work for anyone other than the wealthy. I have been consulting in the Bahamas for over a decade. Life outside of the resort areas is much much different. Rolling brownouts daily and their public health system routinely means 3 hour wait times for emergency services. Our system, supported by taxes, is exponentially better.

Boeing et al is able to show prior sales data to walk into a bank and borrow billions. I don't know how they started but gov't assistance is likely in that type of scenario. If you assembled a bunch of aerospace engineers and tried to start a new company, you will not be able to walk in and borrow billions...that is the point I was making.

RE: turning over my money to the system, I am a routine follower of Open the Books and I realize our gov't is broken...beyond repair. As was pointed out earlier, we are supposed to be taxed "with representation" The problem is the greed of man. That is why the average life of an empire is 200 yrs. Most of the GOP are as corrupt at the Left, bc of the money and power they are afforded by working at the fed. Term & lobbying limits would help this considerably, but it would not fix it. As far as moral justification, Christ said "pay to Caesar what is Caesar's." I will do that and continue to vote for lower taxes. I just don't' expect anything for free. I am taxed for public schools and pay $40k+/yr to send my kids to private school...its my choice.

It gets back to the response we give the left...if you don't like it, leave. For better or worse there is still no better place on the planet to live.

[Kevin68]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Well thought out coherent arguments, unlike the other guy in this thread who simply posted this...

Thank you.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

I can promise you pay for service EMS does not work for anyone other than the wealthy. I have been consulting in the Bahamas for over a decade. Life outside of the resort areas is much much different. Rolling brownouts daily and their public health system routinely means 3 hour wait times for emergency services. Our system, supported by taxes, is exponentially better.

I've been to The Bahamas 7 or 8 times, but never to a resort area. Always Abaco or Exuma. It really is a second world country so I don't expect the level of care or services that we enjoy. I just always rent a house with a generator. BTW it is also a country with no income taxes - VAT, import tariffs, and property taxes.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Boeing et al is able to show prior sales data to walk into a bank and borrow billions. I don't know how they started but gov't assistance is likely in that type of scenario. If you assembled a bunch of aerospace engineers and tried to start a new company, you will not be able to walk in and borrow billions...that is the point I was making.

SpaceX, Richard Branson's space enterprise come to mind although I don't know how much was borrowed or investor-funded. People can borrow all sorts of money for new endeavors. Banks are experts at evaluating risk as are the companies seeking to borrow. There is a local toll road and water development projects that are privately owned and privately funded. It's been proven to work.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

RE: turning over my money to the system, I am a routine follower of Open the Books and I realize our gov't is broken...beyond repair. As was pointed out earlier, we are supposed to be taxed "with representation" The problem is the greed of man. That is why the average life of an empire is 200 yrs. Most of the GOP are as corrupt at the Left, bc of the money and power they are afforded by working at the fed. Term & lobbying limits would help this considerably, but it would not fix it. As far as moral justification, Christ said "pay to Caesar what is Caesar's." I will do that and continue to vote for lower taxes. I just don't' expect anything for free. I am taxed for public schools and pay $40k+/yr to send my kids to private school...its my choice.

The problem is the power Congress and the Executive have seized for themselves and unchecked by a court system pandering to a collectivist mindset. At this point everyone is getting something for "free" so they tolerate the theft without really understanding what they are supporting and more importantly, no option for objecting to what they don't support. "STFU and pay your taxes, slave." Which is not how I interpret your biblical quote. I think what Jesus was saying is that we should not be concerned with our material possessions but rather our spiritual substance....if you finished the rest of the quote and read the whole verse in context, you might agree. Or not. If you have the means to pay for your kids private education, or whatever you choose is best for their education, I think you should be free to do so and for unburdening the system from educating your spawn, the least they could do it refund your school taxes. Starve the beast.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

It gets back to the response we give the left...if you don't like it, leave. For better or worse there is still no better place on the planet to live.

True, I can think of no better option. The fact it is my best option is not a reason to accept the status quo.

I don't give that response to the left (even though I'd be happier if they emmigrated). The fact that the majority tramples my rights is insufficient reason for me to leave (or suggest my departure). The constitution states that my government is supposed to protect my rights, even if unpopular. It's the essence of the American experiment.

[KenHorse]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

The US had no income taxes prior to 1913 and we managed to thrive.

What else of import happened during 1913?

Oh yea, Woodrow Wilson was POTUS

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

Thank you.



I've been to The Bahamas 7 or 8 times, but never to a resort area. Always Abaco or Exuma. It really is a second world country so I don't expect the level of care or services that we enjoy. I just always rent a house with a generator. BTW it is also a country with no income taxes - VAT, import tariffs, and property taxes.

The VAT in the Bahamas is really high as are the import tariffs. The also pay a national healthcare tax based on income…sounds a lot like an income tax.

"STFU and pay your taxes, slave." Which is not how I interpret your biblical quote. I think what Jesus was saying is that we should not be concerned with our material possessions but rather our spiritual substance....if you finished the rest of the quote and read the whole verse in context, you might agree. Or not.

The reference is that Christ is asked about paying taxes. The Pharisees were attempting to trap him by asking about giving the secular/pagan government money. His response is to ask whose image is on the coin which happens to be an image of Caesar. Much like our currency image is of our government and prior leaders. His answer is to pay to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and give to God what is God’s. I do both, the former being easier than the latter.

[Kevin68]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

The VAT in the Bahamas is really high as are the import tariffs. The also pay a national healthcare tax based on income…sounds a lot like an income tax.

I don't really give a shit about what The Bahamas does. I'm just there for the Goombay Smashes, Kalik, a rental house with a dock (and generator), a rental boat, an empty beach, and saying FU to the world for a couple of weeks.

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

The reference is that Christ is asked about paying taxes. The Pharisees were attempting to trap him by asking about giving the secular/pagan government money. His response is to ask whose image is on the coin which happens to be an image of Caesar. Much like our currency image is of our government and prior leaders. His answer is to pay to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and give to God what is God’s. I do both, the former being easier than the latter.

I'm not there's any point in engaging you in this but the event you are referring to happened when Jesus returned to Jerusalem less than a week before his death and resurrection. The Jews and Romans wanted him dead. They conspired to ask him a yes or no question that gave one of them justification for doing so (although the Jews may have been more interested in discrediting him, IIRC). As one facing death, your material possessions and abuses at the hands of a tyrant mean nothing unless you've given yourself to God, so go ahead and give Caesar his due.

At least that's how I've interpreted that verse. I've never read it as an endorsement of paying taxes or justification for taxation in general. Yet, here I am, paying my taxes because not doing so would end badly for me. I reserve my right to point out the insanity of our current tax system as much as I want and lobby for alternatives that are more economical, functional and fair.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

I don't really give a shit about what The Bahamas does.

I feel like this is becoming a circular argument for the sake of arguing.

It was stated that the Bahamas are tax free or income tax free. They aren't. That's all the point I was making.