The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[GrandSportC3]

[quote=RedLS1GTO;2238399]So that righteous indignation and idealistic honesty only goes 1 way. Got it. Customers lying to dealers is perfectly ok.
[quote]A dealer is a professional. They have staff that looks at trades. They won't take a customer by their word.
There is a different expectancy of honesty between individuals and a business.

I wasn't talking about buying a used car. I was asking if your unicorn world of honesty went both ways. Which it does not.

Again, there is quite a difference between an individual and a business. Individuals are not guided by laws regulating businesses.

While we're on the point of honesty in the car world, if someone intentionally lies to me about a trade, and it's usually pretty easy to tell if they are lying vs. just ignorant, I will absolutely do everything I can within the bounds of the law to get every dollar I can from them. I am sure as hell not giving them anything even close to a good deal. Because f**k you. "Oh, I didn't know it had a salvage title". "Oh, I didn't know the rods were about to come out the bottom". "Oh, I didn't know ..." You want respect, earn it. You want a fair negotiation, that goes both ways. Look at me being a big 'ole meanie face dealer.

If a private individual buys from another private individual, there is an expectation of risk as consumer protections do not extend to private sales unless of course, the seller states certain things in the contract. He can be held by any statements made in the sales contract. If it is a standard AS IS contract, there is little legal recourse. A dealer can't legally hide things like title issues. Legally, there is a huge difference between a business and an individual.

As for the "small dealers" being the ones rolling back odometers, you are simply wrong (as usual). A legitimate, licensed dealer that gets caught doing it is subject to an absolutely massive amount of fines and more importantly loses their licenses. Given how easy it is to get caught, a dealer rolling back odometers would be in business for about a week. Individuals are the ones manipulating odometers, not dealers.

This didn't happen just once. I looked at several cars at small dealers and found that the odometer was rolled back. Of course they can claim that it was rolled back when they got the vehicle. I know for a fact that they were rolled back as I ALWAYS run a carfax. Good Dealers usually have the carfax of any vehicle that they are selling. It's a red flag if they don't have it.

They really should pass some laws and make it illegal to change odometers. That would stop it for sure.

While it is illegal, it is often hard to prove that the dealer did it. They can always claim that the car had a bad CPU and they had to swap it out and coincidentally, the car that the new CPU came from had a lower mileage.

As for your story, do you have any proof of what you claim or did you just make assumptions about intent when you only had a small piece of the information? Auctions screw up a massive amount of the titles that they process... and Carfax is absolute garbage. It's simply not worth it for dealers to do what you are claiming. The reward does not come close to the risk.

I run carfax reports on any car I'm looking at. I refuse to get screwed. If you have a car that shows the mileage constantly going up to 250k+ miles and then the same car is offered with 95k miles, this is definitely fraud. It's just hard to prove WHO did it. Unless you catch the dealer in the act swapping out the car's computer, how can it be proven?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Talk about socialist AND a victim mentality. Jeebus is right. Holy crap.

You don't seem to understand the word socialist. It has zero to do with consumer protections. Socialism is about redistribution of wealth, not consumer protections.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I won't argue the here today, gone tomorrow part. In many cases, the big guys make sure of it. (I discussed this earlier in the thread)

I will however question the "scammer" part. I know a hell of a lot of dealership owners. They are generally people working much harder than most in an industry hellbent on kicking their asses. I wouldn't call any of them "scammers" outside of the worst of the worst buy here/pay here "no credit check" joints. When it comes to the small lots, the biggest advantage is selling the cars that are older or otherwise below what the big guys sell. Offering financing to people that the big guys want nothing to do with. So yes, as a result of that, it is generally a lower class clientele, clearly lower revenue, etc. That's the market segment that they can actually have a chance of grabbing.

Not everybody is an 800 credit customer. Dealing with those that aren't, offering the higher interest rates, big down payments, etc isn't "scamming" if you fully disclose what is happening.

Many would not ever own cars if not for alternative / sub-prime auto financing programs.
While the terms are far from favorable, it serves a purpose for a segment of consumers.

I have a nephew, good kid, 20 years old, working almost 40 hours / week at new car dealership while in college.
He sold 6 cars this past weekend, and could only finance 1 of the 6.
Not every consumer has 800 scores and a football of money in their pant's pocket, and those who do not are thankful when financing can be offered.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

You should report them, as is a felony.

How can you prove that the dealer did it?
Also, there would only be a case if I actually buy the car as otherwise, I wasn't harmed and have no case.

All that you can see in the carfax was the mileage going up for years until it hit like 250k miles. Then the carfax showed that the car was auctioned.
2 months later, the car is listed for sale with 95k miles. How do you prove who did it?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

Are you referencing smaller private dealerships that only sell used cars, which is a huge separation from new car dealerships.
Many, if not most, of the used car only lots are scammers, here today, gone tomorrow.

With that said, I cannot recall any new car dealerships in SE FL that have been charged criminally for their advertising strategies.

How do you prove a oral statement that you didn't record?

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

How do you prove a oral statement that you didn't record?

I was referencing your post in which you stated the odometer being changed.

BTW, in all types of business, not only vehicle sales, I am VERY aware that you have no pursuit unless an offer was made in writing.
And even for tv, radio and print ads there is ALWAYS a disclaimer.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

It happened to him once. 15 years ago. His conclusion from that is that it's "very common." Yet more proof he lacks even a basic understanding of statistics since a sample size of 1 is meaningless.

Not only once.. I shopped on Craigslist for a used vehicle and there was a Honda Odyssey sold by a small dealer listed for 95k miles. I ran the carfax and it showed that the car had over twice the mileage.
I also shopped for a beater truck around the same time and there was this S10 at a small dealer (maybe 20 cars on the lot) and it showed like 120k miles but the carfax showed over 300k miles. This was a while ago, so I don't recall details but what I recall 100% is that both times, the odometer did not match the carfax.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

How can you prove that the dealer did it?
Also, there would only be a case if I actually buy the car as otherwise, I wasn't harmed and have no case.

All that you can see in the carfax was the mileage going up for years until it hit like 250k miles. Then the carfax showed that the car was auctioned.
2 months later, the car is listed for sale with 95k miles. How do you prove who did it?

If you contacted the State of FLORIDA Attorney General, whether the car was purchased by you OR NOT, they would pursue a consumer complaint against a car dealership if you were able to provide proof this was being done.

If you cannot provide proof the them, you should not state in here that you know they are doing it.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

I was referencing your post in which you stated the odometer being changed.

BTW, in all types of business, not only vehicle sales, I am VERY aware that you have no pursuit unless an offer was made in writing.
And even for tv, radio and print ads there is ALWAYS a disclaimer.

They did not advertise the mileage.. I called and asked for the mileage and I was told that it was 95k miles.. so, nothing on paper.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

If you contacted the State of FLORIDA Attorney General, whether the car was purchased by you OR NOT, they would pursue a consumer complaint against a car dealership if you were able to provide proof this was being done.

If you cannot provide proof the them, you should not state in here that you know they are doing it.

Well, that was many years ago.. I'm not buying used cars anymore since quite a few years.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

They did not advertise the mileage.. I called and asked for the mileage and I was told that it was 95k miles.. so, nothing on paper.

You are making huge assumptions, and stating them as facts.
The current owner cannot be labelled as the fraudulent party, unless you can prove they are the fraudulent party.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

Not sure if still happens today, as the electronics in newer cars make it tougher to do.
I have rarely heard of anyone being prosecuted for this, as the penalties are huge, which are:

These violations EACH carry a fine as much as $5,000 and/or five years in prison.

I don't know what happens today in the used car market as I don't buy used cars anymore. Back 15 or so years ago, I found many cars with rolled back odometer. Today, lots of the CPU's have the VIN number and you can't just change them without a licensed dealership of the brand getting involved.
Back then, on many cars, you could just swap the car's computer to one from a lower mileage car and you would roll back the miles.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

You are making huge assumptions, and stating them as facts.
The current owner cannot be labelled as the fraudulent party, unless you can prove they are the fraudulent party.

exactly.. My concern was getting screwed. I wasn't worried about going after them legally. I ALWAYS run carfax if the dealer doesn't provide one. It's money well spent. It's not just rolled back odometer but accidents as well and other information. Carfax is not perfect and not everything shows but things like mileage rollback can be easily detected.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I don't know what happens today in the used car market as I don't buy used cars anymore. Back 15 or so years ago, I found many cars with rolled back odometer. Today, lots of the CPU's have the VIN number and you can't just change them without a licensed dealership of the brand getting involved.
Back then, on many cars, you could just swap the car's computer to one from a lower mileage car and you would roll back the miles.

We should try to focus our discussion TODAY with conditions in the marketplace TODAY.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

exactly.. My concern was getting screwed. I wasn't worried about going after them legally. I ALWAYS run carfax if the dealer doesn't provide one. It's money well spent. It's not just rolled back odometer but accidents as well and other information. Carfax is not perfect and not everything shows but things like mileage rollback can be easily detected.

I am VERY familiar with carfax, thanks.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Not only once.. I shopped on Craigslist for a used vehicle and there was a Honda Odyssey sold by a small dealer listed for 95k miles. I ran the carfax and it showed that the car had over twice the mileage.
I also shopped for a beater truck around the same time and there was this S10 at a small dealer (maybe 20 cars on the lot) and it showed like 120k miles but the carfax showed over 300k miles. This was a while ago, so I don't recall details but what I recall 100% is that both times, the odometer did not match the carfax.

Well, that's different. A sample size of 3 from 15 years ago is proof positive that it's very common now.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

A dealer is a professional. They have staff that looks at trades. They won't take a customer by their word.
There is a different expectancy of honesty between individuals and a business.

...

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Again, there is quite a difference between an individual and a business. Individuals are not guided by laws regulating businesses.

Look how fast that righteous indignation and all of that bullshit about ethics, morals, and integrity just flew out the window...

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

If a private individual buys from another private individual, there is an expectation of risk as consumer protections do not extend to private sales unless of course, the seller states certain things in the contract. He can be held by any statements made in the sales contract. If it is a standard AS IS contract, there is little legal recourse. A dealer can't legally hide things like title issues. Legally, there is a huge difference between a business and an individual.

What in the hell are you even arguing?

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

This didn't happen just once. I looked at several cars at small dealers and found that the odometer was rolled back. Of course they can claim that it was rolled back when they got the vehicle. I know for a fact that they were rolled back as I ALWAYS run a carfax. Good Dealers usually have the carfax of any vehicle that they are selling. It's a red flag if they don't have it.

You're lying.

It's that simple. You're making shit up.

And the best part of it is that after all of your talk of being a "seasoned buyer", you are too ignorant to realize that you fell for the most misleading bullshit in the entire auto industry. Carfax. Do you know who told you that it was a red flag? Carfax told you. Let that sink in for a minute. Carfax marketing told you that not having a Carfax is a red flag. Where do you think Carfax inputs come from?

Carfax is garbage.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

While it is illegal, it is often hard to prove that the dealer did it. They can always claim that the car had a bad CPU and they had to swap it out and coincidentally, the car that the new CPU came from had a lower mileage.

Stop lying.

Changing an ECU (I assume that's what you meant) doesn't change the mileage. That's not how it works. Maybe you should try to educate yourself before posting more ignorant nonsense.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I run carfax reports on any car I'm looking at. I refuse to get screwed. If you have a car that shows the mileage constantly going up to 250k+ miles and then the same car is offered with 95k miles, this is definitely fraud. It's just hard to prove WHO did it. Unless you catch the dealer in the act swapping out the car's computer, how can it be proven?

If you think Carfax prevents you from getting screwed...

Can't lie. You falling that hard for blatantly misleading marketing after all of this really makes me laugh.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Well, that's different. A sample size of 3 from 15 years ago is proof positive that it's very common now.

I have collected experience with all types of dealers, new or used, over a very long time. I consider myself an expert car buyer who won't get screwed over. Back a few years back, many of my friends asked me to check out cars for them as they don't understand much about cars and they are afraid of getting screwed. I'm reflecting on my combined experience of all those years.
The only experiences with new car dealers in the last couple of years were the ones I posted about... the one with BRANDON HYUNDAI that agreed with me on a price and then wanted to jack it up when I refused their low ball offer on my trade. The one with HYUNDAI of Ocala that lied to me about their IONIQ 5's not having mark ups on the phone and the recent experience at a local Ford dealer that the lower priced Ford Lightning didn't have the tax credit. I do give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know but as someone in that profession, he should know. Again, I also said that I had a positive experience with dealers but those experiences were with dealers outside of Florida. As I said before, Massey Hyundai in Hagerstown/MD was fantastic including my sales guy. 100% honest and never misleading in any way.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

If you think Carfax prevents you from getting screwed...

Can't lie. You falling that hard for blatantly misleading marketing after all of this really makes me laugh.

carfax is only as good as items that were reported, it is VERY COMMON on many, if not most, carfaxes that MANY things went unreported.

For instance, your neighbor's body shop fixes your front-end collision, you tell him not to put it on carfax, he agrees as no one else will know.

Another, you take your bent frame pickup truck to vladimar's suspension shop after your wife goes airborne for 50 feet off a speed bump.
vlad advises he can get it back to 90% factory spec, gives you a price, gives you another price, a little higher, so that he will report the damage and inadequate repair, you agree to the higher price as you want to sell it once repair it done. vlad agrees but only if you pay him upfront AND give him a jug handle of smirnoff's, you agree, all is good, the sucka who buys your truck will never know.

carfax IS NOT golden!!

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I have collected experience with all types of dealers, new or used, over a very long time. I consider myself an expert car buyer who won't get screwed over.

Because Carfax.