Ceramic Brake Pads / Unscientific Comparison

[Norm]

I am a big proponent of ceramic brake pads, I can't stand the dust produced by OEM pads.

I've put on about 300 miles since last wipe down of the wheels. Took these two shots today, the left I wiped down with a damp rag, the right, did not touch.

Very happy with them.

[Torqaholic]

Tried them. Figured out I prefer the performance of organic pads. Maybe check them out again if I learn to slow down. That can happen

[Rodnok1]

I'm with you Norm, huge difference in crud build up on rims and i don't know about you but cleaning rims isn't real high on my desired to do list. I'd gave anything to have ceramic pads back when.

[the new me]

I am under the impression that ceramics don't brake well until they are warm/hot. There are claims that when you have ceramic brakes you have to drive extra-conservatively until the brakes warm up. And that it might be a good idea to safely do some rapid stops to heat them up. The theoretical advantage (other than cleaner rims) is that the ceramic pads don't overheat/fade easily, if at all. Is any of this true?

[04 commemorative]

Bring back Asbestos

[Norm]

Originally Posted by the new me

I am under the impression that ceramics don't brake well until they are warm/hot. There are claims that when you have ceramic brakes you have to drive extra-conservatively until the brakes warm up. And that it might be a good idea to safely do some rapid stops to heat them up. The theoretical advantage (other than cleaner rims) is that the ceramic pads don't overheat/fade easily, if at all. Is any of this true?

Far from having any technical advice, I've never heard of that and have never experienced any fade or having issues at all.

In a year and a half time, I ran at VIR three times, first time with OEM pads, 2nd & 3rd times with ceramics, same type of running, flat out and intense braking on turns, felt no difference between the two.

[VatorMan]

Originally Posted by Norm

Far from having any technical advice, I've never heard of that and have never experienced any fade or having issues at all.

In a year and a half time, I ran at VIR three times, first time with OEM pads, 2nd & 3rd times with ceramics, same type of running, flat out and intense braking on turns, felt no difference between the two.

Then you either weren’t going fast enough or braking hard enough.

[Norm]

Originally Posted by VatorMan

Then you either weren’t going fast enough or braking hard enough.

For me it was, that's all that counts.

[Lakeside49]

“Ceramic” is a marketing gimmick. The aftermarket absolutely understands this. It is a fancy name for processed sand. We (an OEM) all use some of it in our friction pads as an inert ingredient that lightens, not lessens the ugly/corrosive dust. Brake pad formulations are a closely held trade secret for each OEM because of the heavy investment required to formulate, test, refine and optimize the front-to-rear stopping dynamics, including in hot and cold weather severe service on the actual vehicle that it is designed for. Getting the right balance is difficult (noise, heat fade, stopping distance, FMVSS pedal effort requirements which ONLY applies to the OEMs, dusting, durability, and 18 other criteria. Not a single aftermarket manufacturer even remotely comes close. They don’t have the motive, resources, or expertise - though, admittedly Federal Mogul’s aftermarket “Wagner” brake products (only) come closest as also being one of our OE friction/rotor suppliers.
Yes, free processed sand is usually a small measured part of at least our company’s (Ford) proprietary friction formulas as it has been for decades, but not as a gimmick and only when it complements the other 24 ingredients, and some of which are very expensive/highly effective and very likely not on the menu of the aftermarket pad formulations (I reluctantly refrain from mentioning them, which as automotive enthusiasts we have heard of, but would be quite surprised at their application, because it is highly proprietary - and, I don’t trust a Chinese company to not steal it).
Incidentally, we avoided the tempting cost-savings/favorable branding association to use more of it, partly because our data showed that ceramics were harder on rotors, shortening their lifespan without any offsetting benefit of increased stopping performance. That said, I don’t necessarily recommend against them - I don’t read about any particular safety issues. But, at least now you know it’s hype - and, that it’s demonstrated lighter brake dust benefits are probably offset by a decrease in other key friction product performance criteria. Regrettably, no free lunch here.

Btw, since without exception, 100% of ceramic is an abrasive substance to metal ... why has “ceramic” car wax/protection taken off? Would it not be associated with abrasiveness to paint? Feels like a stupid name for a polymer film - and, clear plastic compounds normally yellow under UV light/the sun as acknowledged by at least one manufacturer, who promises that it can be “easily removed” by rubbing the treated paint with isopropyl alcohol-soaked towels, then reapplying to restore the original shine. Thanks, but no thank you.

[Rodnok1]

All I know is that rims are clean, car brakes as good as with others... I'm not racing it.
As far as being harder on rotors.. Okay as I'll trade that for not scrubbing the shit off my rims for hrs on end. I put 30 to 40k on brakes and replace them anyway as they're cheap for me.

[Norm]

Originally Posted by Lakeside49

“Ceramic” is a marketing gimmick. The aftermarket absolutely understands this. It is a fancy name for processed sand. We (an OEM) all use some of it in our friction pads as an inert ingredient that lightens, not lessens the ugly/corrosive dust. Brake pad formulations are a closely held trade secret for each OEM because of the heavy investment required to formulate, test, refine and optimize the front-to-rear stopping dynamics, including in hot and cold weather severe service on the actual vehicle that it is designed for. Getting the right balance is difficult (noise, heat fade, stopping distance, FMVSS pedal effort requirements which ONLY applies to the OEMs, dusting, durability, and 18 other criteria. Not a single aftermarket manufacturer even remotely comes close. They don’t have the motive, resources or expertise.
Yes, free processed sand is usually a small measured part of at least our company’s (Ford) proprietary friction formulas as it has been for decades, but not as a gimmick and only when it complements the other 24 ingredients, and some of which are very expensive/highly effective and very likely not on the menu of the aftermarket pad formulations (I reluctantly refrain from mentioning them, which as automotive enthusiasts we have heard of, but would be quite surprised at their application, because it is highly proprietary - and, I don’t trust a Chinese company to not steal it).
Incidentally, we avoided the tempting cost-savings/favorable branding association to use more of it, partly because our data showed that ceramics were harder on rotors, shortening their lifespan without any offsetting benefit of increased stopping performance. That said, I don’t necessarily recommend against them - I don’t read about any particular safety issues. But, at least now you know it’s hype - and, that it’s demonstrated lighter brake dust benefits are probably offset by a decrease in other key friction product performance criteria. Regrettably, no free lunch here.

Btw, since without exception, 100% of ceramic is an abrasive substance to metal ... why has “ceramic” car wax/protection taken off? Would it not be associated with abrasiveness to paint? Feels like a stupid name for a polymer film - and, clear plastic compounds normally yellow under UV light/the sun as acknowledged by at least one manufacturer, who promises that it can be “easily removed” by rubbing the treated paint with isopropyl alcohol-soaked towels, then reapplying to restore the original shine. Thanks, but no thank you.

Thanks for all the technical stuff and your opinion, it is duly noted. I have read all that jargon in the past. Right now for me, I really don't care what the bad affects the "ceramic" pads may do or not do.

I do know one thing, I've had these pads on for close to 40,000 miles now, I feel nothing that has adversely affected my braking, or anything aesthetic reference looks, staining or whatever else they are purported to do, and I should know, I see it every day.

I have more that half pad life left, and I'm not hard on breaking, down shift a lot, so my rotors will probably out live me.

[Lakeside49]

Good for you, sir.