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Old 11-24-2020, 9:45am   #1
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Default What to do with unskilled labor

So Flexo and the current state of affairs has brought up a topic again.
What do we do with unskilled labor. With automation taking over a lot of unskilled labor jobs such as floor buffer dude at the Wal-Mart, cashiers at stores with self checkouts, bag boys(god I'm old), newspaper delivery (both as kids and adults), etc.... What do we do with these people, or what do they do. Perhaps this is a reason socialism is rearing it's ugly head?
They always need ditch diggers they used to say when someone wasn't qualified to do much more back in the day. So with automated trash trucks where does that person go? If they haven't started yet I'm sure they find another path(or just become a leach on society) but what happens to those who have no desire or skill to do something else? My bet is they become a leach on society most of the time, they cannot go up without training and experience, lets face it nobody hires a 45 year old trash guy for Network administrator when he's cut from his job.
I've worked with hard working people that their current job was the best they could ever hope for skill wise(mental capacity also) and I've worked with geniuses that kept menial jobs as they were lazy.
So at this point they become disenfranchised but expect to be equal to everyone else that have better jobs or are more skilled i suppose. So I raise the question again is this why socialism is beimg sought by those who think it's their answer.
Futuristic shows such as Star Trek shows a society with everyone basically in a socialist society, they don't talk about the guy cleaning the floors but bet his ass was assigned the shitter cleaning job instead of running the photon torpedo controls.

What's your thoughts on this area and please keep it civil.
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Old 11-24-2020, 9:59am   #2
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we'll always have the poor in society.

but you are on to something. all this "automation" and "high tech" has a cost we don't see.

when i was in HS (early 80s), our shop class took a field trip to the nearby Mack Truck plant. fascinating experience. i remember watching one guy, who's only job, was to take straight tubing and bend it just so, following templates, so it would fit into the engine later. i later thought, he does this everyday, 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week. just one task, over and over. i don't want to do that later.

and now we have fancy bending machines that will do that task perfectly, endlessly, and you can change the program anytime you want, and you don't have to pay it, or give it health insurance, or fund its pension. you can even locate that machine in Vietnam, and ship the finished product every month in a Conex box and pay the operator pennies compared to wages in Scranton.

But this is nothing new. the term "sabotage" derived from weavers throwing their sabots into the machines, as they saw their livelihood disappearing with automated weaving looms. that was a long time ago.

guess i'm lucky, but others not so much.

i don't have an answer.
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Old 11-24-2020, 10:17am   #3
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Scrooge-"Are there no prisons?"
"Plenty of prisons..."
Scrooge-"And the Union workhouses." . "Are they still in operation?"
"Both very busy, sir..."
"Those who are badly off must go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
Scrooge- "If they would rather die," "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."
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Old 11-24-2020, 10:20am   #4
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A different perspective.
When eggie was a young man, commercial HVAC systems were run by pneumatic controls or electro-mechanical. One good serviceman could work on all of it and determine if it was a mechanical breakdown or controls issue. Really good ones could fix both.
Fast forward, we now have every piece of equipment with onboard microprocessors. There is also a computer or multiple computers interconnected. Now we need a service mechanic, an automation guy, and a programmer/integrator to make all of this stuff work correctly.

Smart people adapt and learn new skills. Dumb ones don't and get left behind.
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Old 11-24-2020, 10:34am   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodnok1 View Post
So Flexo and the current state of affairs has brought up a topic again.
What do we do with unskilled labor. With automation taking over a lot of unskilled labor jobs such as floor buffer dude at the Wal-Mart, cashiers at stores with self checkouts, bag boys(god I'm old), newspaper delivery (both as kids and adults), etc.... What do we do with these people, or what do they do. Perhaps this is a reason socialism is rearing it's ugly head?


Socialism - in the form of Universal Basic Income - has been proposed repeatedly as the solution to the loss of low-skill jobs. Perhaps if done correctly maybe it could replace the current welfare and food stamp programs which are widely abused with something simpler and harder to game.
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Old 11-24-2020, 10:52am   #6
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Socialism - in the form of Universal Basic Income - has been proposed repeatedly as the solution to the loss of low-skill jobs. Perhaps if done correctly maybe it could replace the current welfare and food stamp programs which are widely abused with something simpler and harder to game.

Universal Basic Income - aka giving people money for doing nothing - is different from welfare how, exactly?

Socialism has been a complete and utter failure wherever it's been tried. Talk to anyone (except the very elite) from one of the current socialist countries and listen to them. It doesn't work because eventually the government runs out of other peoples' money.
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Old 11-24-2020, 10:53am   #7
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Smart people adapt and learn new skills. Dumb ones don't and get left behind.
Absolutely.. But what do we do with them... Does it just create a massive divide between haves and have nots(bad example I'm sure). We can't just leave them in limbo as a society as that's never a good Idea. Thus the question since they are being left behind is this why socialism is coming up?
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Old 11-24-2020, 10:56am   #8
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Universal Basic Income - aka giving people money for doing nothing - is different from welfare how, exactly?

Socialism has been a complete and utter failure wherever it's been tried. Talk to anyone (except the very elite) from one of the current socialist countries and listen to them. It doesn't work because eventually the government runs out of other peoples' money.
Good point, too bad the country won't make people work for their handout as that's mean now(thanks liberals). They could never do CCC in this state of things but look at all the good it did.

Regardless a project like CCC was never meant to be long term but perhaps it would give people a sense of responsibility and a path to employment elsewhere.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:19am   #9
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I don't think it's a matter of unskilled labor jobs disappearing as much as it is people no longer want to do those jobs. They feel it's beneath them.

Even some skilled labor is fighting this lack of ambition. Take the construction trades as an example. You can make a decent living welding pipe. But the minute they find out the weld is on top of a coal fired boiler -that's operating- they'll laugh in your face.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:33am   #10
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I don't think it's a matter of unskilled labor jobs disappearing as much as it is people no longer want to do those jobs. They feel it's beneath them.

Even some skilled labor is fighting this lack of ambition. Take the construction trades as an example. You can make a decent living welding pipe. But the minute they find out the weld is on top of a coal fired boiler -that's operating- they'll laugh in your face.
Been there did it! With that said I really did not enjoy the -20F or lower temperatures when working outside in NY states nasty winters.


Well I never have been laughed at. Tell theme your making $50 per hour and a shitload more on the plentiful overtime available and also get excellent health benefits and a very good pension, that stops all their merriment.


Heck in my case I could take early retirement to a paid for new built house on a big lake, and afford to do just about anything I wanted to do.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:35am   #11
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Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs series showed that any job has it's highs and lows. but almost everyone on that show had a smile on their face at the end of the day. they enjoyed their jobs and their earnings. it was honest, but dirty, work.

long ago, i had a job that involved a LOT of travel. and we had a fairly snooty typist (she typed my reports) that wanted to re-write my stuff.

honey, if you want to do my job, you'll need a engineering or architect degree, a professional license (another 4 years minimum), and then you can do this. stay in your lane. and of course, she had 9-5 hours. i had 4am to 10pm hours some days, but only got my 8 hour salary. still interested?
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:45am   #12
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This is the fallacy of a so called living wage from menial jobs. Even if you work at a place 5 years, you will make the same as the guy that was just hired and doesn’t know a thing. It leads to complacency and lack of drive.

I will say that the upcoming tidal wave of solar arrays will need a lot of labor. However, with the border open again, I know who’s going to be building them.

S.Korea will make the panels and inverters, China will make the steel stands, Middle and South America will install them in the US. Yep, lots of high paying Green New Deal jobs coming right up.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:52am   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R View Post
Universal Basic Income - aka giving people money for doing nothing - is different from welfare how, exactly?
I heard that you get more welfare money by popping out more kids. This of course incentivizes women to produce lots and lots of otherwise unwanted offspring. Also, welfare payments typically stop when you find a job, thus dis-incentivizing people to find work.

As I understand it UBI is just a single flat rate for each adult no matter how many children they have or whether they are employed, which would close those loopholes.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:55am   #14
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Some people just have no drive or ambition, but want money for doing nothing. A good friend's daughter went in the Navy, learned Farsi, got out and got a very high paying intelligence job at the Pentagon. A year later she decided she wanted to be gay, turned into a socialist and quit. Now she's a bartender and is always whining about not making enough money and she's all in favor of Universal Basic Income. Idiots are idiots and always will be.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:59am   #15
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Some people just have no drive or ambition, but want money for doing nothing. Now she's a bartender and is always whining about not making enough money and she's all in favor of Universal Basic Income. Idiots are idiots and always will be.
So what's your solution? You want all those useless people to become homeless and sleep on the street in front of your house?
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:05pm   #16
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How close to socialism is just being obedient?
Everyone has a different idea of when a job is done and as mentioned some know but don't care. I am told that I am a perfectionist, I see it as I am all in until the task has been completed to its full potential.
"Why bust my ass when someone else can do it and I still get paid" has always been and always will be the attitude a large portion of the workforce!
In some situations I believe that laziness bread automation, with the being said where do these people go? Down the street to the next unsuspecting place to repeat the cycle I suppose
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:11pm   #17
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Absolutely.. But what do we do with them... Does it just create a massive divide between haves and have nots(bad example I'm sure). We can't just leave them in limbo as a society as that's never a good Idea. Thus the question since they are being left behind is this why socialism is coming up?
Seems to me that "some" of those folks were finding positions in the trump economy prior to the covid thing. Every place I passed had help wanted signs, was offering free training with no experience required. Seems to me that, given a chance, folks find reward in earning their way, as opposed to being given a fish each day. We have generations of people who have been fed, clothed and coddled at every turn. GENERATIONS, yet they remain poor. Do you think they dont notice? Do you think they saw opportunity in the former trump economy and enjoyed being able to participate? I sure as hell do.

Teach a man to fish.....
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:29pm   #18
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So what's your solution? You want all those useless people to become homeless and sleep on the street in front of your house?
That's the only alternative? Seriously? The solution for her in particular is to live within her means, whatever that is. When you have a skill that is in high demand and can get a job that pays very well, you don't get other people's money free just because you're lazy. That's precisely why socialism fails. Why work when you can get free money from the government?
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:32pm   #19
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Why work when you can get free money from the government?
Or by panhandling.
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:46pm   #20
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Been there did it! With that said I really did not enjoy the -20F or lower temperatures when working outside in NY states nasty winters.
Nope. I didn't really enjoy some of the jobs I had either. MN winters can be pretty tough. We have a couple refineries in our jurisdiction here. I can't think of much worse than dragging ****ing lead across a pipe rack in January.

But that's where the $$ was. I passed on a lot of referrals slapping copper together in better conditions working less hours. What's it gonna be? 40's inside or 7-12's outside? I chose 7-12's almost always.

As an apprentice I saw a lot of new F-150's in the parking lot and there was one way to get one; work. Now? They all want the new truck but not what it takes to get one.
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