{Religion} Why can't people accept...

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by kingpin

Why would you hate a company that moves overseas other then the obvious of Americans losing jobs?

...because it is much easier to villainize those evil rich CEOs instead of addressing the reasons that they leave in the first place.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Isn't that enough?

The better question is why do you villainize the company that does what it must do to survive instead of addressing the absolutely toxic economic environment that leads them to do it?

It sickens me that companies are going overseas, but blaming the companies is asinine. If they can make twice the profit by outsourcing, they are stupid not to. It is no different than the rich that you think are so evil for paying lower tax rates. You can get up on a soap box and talk about how terrible they are all day long, but I guarantee that with millions (or billions) of dollars on the line, you would do the exact same thing.

You want to keep companies here and grow companies here? The answer is as simple as it gets. Make it profitable for them to do so. I don't see how that is so hard for people to comprehend.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

The better question is why do you villainize the company that does what it must do to survive instead of addressing the absolutely toxic economic environment that leads them to do it?

It sickens me that companies are going overseas, but blaming the companies is asinine.

And who do you blame?

You just cannot wrap your head around the concept of corporate greed can you? It's ALL the bottom of the ledger for you is it not?

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Here's something my boss told me that makes 100% sense:
Business has no emotion.

How quaint.

OK, here is where my Liberal wings sprout-

While I certainly agree with making as much money as possible, SOME semblance of corporate responsibility should come into play here. And the corporate responsibility come's in the name of jobs and investing in the USA.

A company sending job's overseas doesn't pass the smell test to me. Even for the almighty bottom line.

Don't like it? I hear China is nice this time of year.

You're the one crying about the end of the US, civil war, and all that nonsense, YOU move.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

I'm tell you what's going to happen.

Never, I'll repeat that for you, NEVER gonna happen.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Thomas

And who do you blame?

The list is short. In no particular order:

1. Government. Not liberals or conservatives. ALL of them over the last decades who have had a hand in building the environment we have now.

2. Unions. There was a time and a place for unions. 2012 America is NOT that time. Unions were created to protect workers against things like unsafe working conditions. Now, they have 1 goal. Money. With union labor, it is nearly impossible to manufacture anything here at a profit. It is a simple equation of value add. When you have to pay more for materials and labor to build something than you can sell it for, you are not going to be around long. You have no problem villainizing the evil CEO yet you have no problem with the person doing a job that could be done by an untrained monkey who is making $50/hr plus lifetime benefits.

Before you throw out the argument that only XX% of the labor force is unionized, you have to consider what occupations those people have. I can't think of a single manufactured good that does not involve union labor. Whether it is the steel, copper, or other raw material, the transport, or the manufacturing of the goods themselves, it is there. It is sad that American steel and copper costs 3 times as much as what is imported, even with insane tariffs on it. To make it even better... if a company does find ways to streamline and become more efficient, they can't reduce manning.

It is simple math. A company forced to pay more for labor, materials, and transportation has to raise the prices to cover those costs. The imported goods come at a cost below what the American company could possibly do and people buy them instead, leaving the American company with 2 options. Outsource, or close.

Not sure what is difficult to understand about that. It is about as simple as it gets.

Originally Posted by Thomas

You just cannot wrap your head around the concept of corporate greed can you? It's ALL the bottom of the ledger for you is it not?

Oh no! Those mean CEOs want to make money. It's just not... fair.

You can't be that naive. The purpose of a publicly traded company is to make a profit for its shareholders. Period. To think otherwise is to be completely ignorant of even the most basic concepts of economics.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Thomas

While I certainly agree with making as much money as possible, SOME semblance of corporate responsibility should come into play here. And the corporate responsibility come's in the name of jobs and investing in the USA.

A company sending job's overseas doesn't pass the smell test to me. Even for the almighty bottom line.

Somehow I think you would think differently if it was your billion dollars on the line.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

You have no problem villainizing the evil CEO yet you have no problem with the person doing a job that could be done by an untrained monkey who is making $50/hr plus lifetime benefits

Try as hard as you can NOT to jump to conclusions regarding what I do, and do not have problems with OK?

I have stated here several times my opinions on unions and the untrained monkey you speak of. You either don't remember, you don't care because it negates a portion of your argument, OR you really don't read what people post, you just regurgitate the same old arguments.

Oh no! Those mean CEOs want to make money. It's just not... fair.

Never did I say "Not Fair."

Someday perhaps, you'll mature a little and the world wont be all black and white to you.

I've got 30 years in the work force. I've WATCHED jobs disappear, people lose homes, possessions, and many other things because jobs went south.

You're what, 30? Maybe 5 years in the military? That puts your private sector experience at 5 years perhaps? Some life experience will be good for you. And I mean no disrespect in that.

Until then, rage on I guess.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Originally Posted by TxAg

If you are too proud and/or nieve to think the US will never fail then do I have a bridge to sell you!

Define "Fail" and I'll try to respond to that.

[zz4vetteguy]

Wait...am I in PR&C? but...but...but I see rational thinking....

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Someday perhaps, you'll mature a little and the world wont be all black and white to you.

... and here comes the wise man condescending shit. Mature a little? Really?

Originally Posted by Thomas

I've got 30 years in the work force. I've WATCHED jobs disappear, people lose homes, possessions, and many other things because jobs went south.

...all because of those evil greedy CEOs. Right?

Do you think that a corporation likes the idea of downsizing, cutting jobs, and decimating the communities that they are in? I can't speak for every CEO out there, but I'm guessing the answer is no. Try taking a step back and looking at WHY those jobs disappeared and WHY they either downsized or outsourced. Do you think it was because they were big meanies? No. Their businesses are on the line every day and in the manufacturing world, margins these days are tight for everybody. Which side of that line you are on determines whether your company lives or dies.

Originally Posted by Thomas

You're what, 30? Maybe 5 years in the military? That puts your private sector experience at 5 years perhaps? Some life experience will be good for you. And I mean no disrespect in that.

Some life experience? Really?

I've been in 60 countries and around the World twice. I've been in manufacturing facilities on 4 continents. I will be dealing with manufacturers from Europe, Asia, South America, Mexico, Canada, and the US today, just like I do every day.

How much of your experience was in the corporate World? Yea. I have about 5 years. 5 years dealing DIRECTLY with this issue working for a Fortune 5 company. My job is in sourcing. Every day I see exactly why companies in the US are destined to fail when competing with those around the World. I am 1 of the people involved in choosing whether we use US Steel or imported, whether we manufacture a component here or whether we outsource it. Whether we use a local shop or 1 overseas.

If you think it is all the "bottom of the ledger" you are incredibly naive. It is not. I try every day to find a way to give the nod to the local shops. Whenever possible it is done, despite higher costs. But, for most manufactured components, it simply can't be done while maintaining even a slight profit margin.

It is so easy to sit at a computer and blast a business for going overseas, using overseas parts, etc. It is a different story when billions of dollars and a razor thin profit margin are on the line.


Or. You could just keep hating all of those evil, greedy CEOs, ignore the root causes of the issue, and watch it continue. Either way.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

Mature a little? Really?

Yes really. I don't think you're a bad guy, not in the least. I also applaud your military service. However, with 5 years in the workforce, I suspect you haven't watched your neighbor lose his house because his job went to Mexico. How about the guy down the street who's marriage disintegrated over financial difficulties? What about the enormous manufacturing company the was an anchor in your state slowly ship job's overseas, and all the position's making tape, sandpaper, cranes, and refrigerators vanish inside of 20 years? (3M, American Hoist and Derek, Whirlpool to name three)

I also stated this; "And I mean no disrespect in that." I guess we're back to reading my post in it's entirety.

I try every day to find a way to give the nod to the local shops. Whenever possible it is done, despite higher costs.

Good job. And I mean that with all sincerity.

You could just keep hating all of those evil, greedy CEOs, ignore the root causes of the issue,

Make no mistake. I am aware the rank and file bear responsibility in this mess also.

I had a vastly different view at 30 than I do at 50. Perhaps you will too.

[Craig]

Without reading past the first page...

...there seems to be an element of irony in the content of the original post.

[kingpin]

Thomas. Sorry buddy.


If I can cut costs by 25% I'm moving that company or buying product elsewhere.
If I don't try to increase my "profit" by at least the rate of inflation x 2 my company won't be around much longer.

I generally agree with a lot of what you say, but unions are the leeches of a corporation. They have single handedly bankrupted corporations(the big3) and raised pay levels to a point where outsourcing or altogether leaving the country in search of cheaper labour is required.

Do I feel sorry for someone who loses their house. If they are part of a union no, not at all. If they are an independent yes I do.

[Giraffe (He/Him)]

They have single handedly bankrupted corporations(the big3)

And I have stated in the past, the UAW is run by complete buffoons. They are a PERFECT example of unions who just don't have a clue.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Yes really. I don't think you're a bad guy, not in the least. I also applaud your military service. However, with 5 years in the workforce, I suspect you haven't watched your neighbor lose his house because his job went to Mexico. How about the guy down the street who's marriage disintegrated over financial difficulties? What about the enormous manufacturing company the was an anchor in your state slowly ship job's overseas, and all the position's making tape, sandpaper, cranes, and refrigerators vanish inside of 20 years? (3M, American Hoist and Derek, Whirlpool to name three)

My entire hometown was almost wiped off of the map when the local Ford transmission plant shut down. Everything from the local restaurants to stores and gas stations have closed as a direct result. The school system lost most of it's money as did the rest of the public services. When I left 12 years ago, it was a beautiful town with some of the top schools in the state. Since then, the median income has been cut in half, the schools are awful, half of the buildings are boarded up... my dad's property value has gone to complete shit. I also watched half of my brother in law's family lose their jobs in a single day when DHL shut it's doors in Wilmington, OH not all that long ago so yes, I have indeed seen it and lived it despite being 31.

I am not intimately familiar with what happened to the first few that you named, but Whirlpool Appliances closing their plants was a direct result of their union labor costs being so high that they were forced to price themselves out of the market. That was THE reason. It is nothing more complicated than them not being able to maintain a profit margin due to massive labor costs. They were "forced" by the union under threat of strikes to accept a new labor agreement with huge pay increases as well as massive expense increases for benefits that simply made it impossible for them to be profitable. The workers became much more expensive than their value add. The sad reality is that with our current environment, there is simply no way that the American appliance companies can compete in price with LG, Samsung, etc. It is absolutely impossible. As I said, I live this exact problem every day. What we CAN do is our best to beat them in quality and hope like hell that the American people still value that. Unfortunately with an economy in the shitter, a little bit of money is a big deal and people are all too willing to simply take the cheaper option.

What choice does this leave a company like Whirlpool? They were boxed into a corner. They couldn't cut workers and try to be more efficient due to union contracts. The unions wouldn't take pay cuts, even to save the company... No matter what they did, they could not get out of the red. They couldn't do anything other than exactly what they did.

Where is the "corporate greed" in this?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Craig

Without reading past the first page...

...there seems to be an element of irony in the content of the original post.

It sure as hell has gotten off of the original subject, but by all means, feel free to point out where I contradicted my original post and created this irony.

[Will]

Just passing through on Mod duty.

50 posts and I didn't have to edit remove a single one ??????

I'm in shock.

[Loco Vette]

Originally Posted by Will

Just passing through on Mod duty.

50 posts and I didn't have to edit remove a single one ??????

I'm in shock.

Oh I am Sssooooooo tempted

[78SA]

[Fasglas]

So, you want to believe in A, B or C?
OK, I'm cool with that.
What's that? Now you want ME to believe in A, B or C, too?
You're going to FORCE me to do it?

Hmmmm... NOW there's a problem...