The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Did you have a written quote?

In that case, it was just information that I got over the phone. I clearly asked if they are selling the IONIQ 5's at MSRP and if there are any mark ups. I was clearly told that there were no mark ups.. Sure, if it was a out of state dealer, I would have asked my questions in an e-mail so that there was a paper trail.
At the time I was shopping for a IONIQ 5 for the wife, I called many dealerships. Most of them were up front with their mark ups. While I still find market adjustments to be unethical, at least those dealerships didn't lie about them. I called like 15 dealerships and Hyundai of Ocala was the first one that said that they won't mark up their IONIQ 5's, so I went there.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Mick

Apparently they are like the old pits on the floor of the stock exchange: The rule was "the price I am offering is only good for as long as it takes to come out of my mouth".

While your scenario is shitty, this part is true. Unless you want to pay a deposit, if you walk out the door... tough shit. What percentage of people who say they will be back... actually come back? At a minimum, you should ask how long this quote is good for (personally, I'd never give more than a day, and even thin I'd add the caveat that someone else coming along could change it.)

I've had people come back a month later, pissed that something was gone that they were going to "think about".

[sublime1996525]

Originally Posted by LATB

Sorry, what $3,600? I don't see where that number came from.

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I find it very hard to believe that this chain of events happened as you claim. Why, would any dealer, ever, do that? It is a waste of THEIR time as much as yours. Not even the shadiest of dealers is going to bring someone in and say GOTCHA!!! and add $13k out of the blue. It makes no sense. Something does not add up. My bet is that if this was a discussion on the phone with absolutely nothing written, even unofficially, somebody (you) misunderstood what was being said.

I kind of side with EV boy on this one. I've had the ADM BS done to me, too. I spoke to a dealer, they sent me a quote, then when I arrived there it was a mistake on their part and they couldn't sell without the ADM because demand was so high, a billion people just called and are willing to pay over MSRP, blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by LATB

Did you have a written quote?

I always send an email and try to deal in email or text. That was everything is written down and it saves a bunch of time. Granted, this doesn't always work but it has saved me a ton of headache. Especially since I always seem to have to buy out of state.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

In that case, it was just information that I got over the phone. I clearly asked if they are selling the IONIQ 5's at MSRP and if there are any mark ups. I was clearly told that there were no mark ups.. Sure, if it was a out of state dealer, I would have asked my questions in an e-mail so that there was a paper trail.

So you didn't get a specific price on a specific vehicle. You asked a generic question, got a generic response, and made a hell of a lot of assumptions.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Where in the shit are you trying to buy cars? Autotrader? Ads?

Virtually every new car I've ever bought has been an "ad unit." It used to be dealers would run big splashy ads in the newspaper. My last car was listed by a local dealer on Autotrader. With dealer ads, you always have to flesh out the fine print. As others have stated, sometimes that price is theoretical, calculating mfg rebates no human alive could qualify for. Sometimes there is a pack, or mop-n-glo. But it's not hard to cut through the chaff with a phone call if the ad is not an obvious bullshit teaser. If you look at dealer ads for a while, you get a feel for what the vehicles are selling for, and now, with the advent of the internet, you to see what out of market dealers are selling their stuff for.

Later, the ads morphed into $ XXXX off of window sticker most of the time, which was OK, too.

TT&L is easily calculated, both sides know what that is. Trades and financing can certainly obfuscate the deal, but I've never done either. Always cash, never a trade. It's less confusing that way. Dealer sets the price, confirm that's actually correct, come in, sign, write check.

The only time I deviated from that was my second motorcycle. I looked on cycletrader for a few months, saw what prices were on the metric I was looking at were, arrived at the lowest price I found during my search, and simply called the same dealer I bought the first bike from in San Antonio. Talked to the owner, told him what I wanted, what I wanted to pay, same deal as the first go-round, need pick up at airport. Yeah, sure, call us back when you have the flight arranged. Easy peasy.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

So you didn't get a specific price on a specific vehicle. You asked a generic question, got a generic response, and made a hell of a lot of assumptions.

My question was VERY SPECIFIC. I asked if they add any market adjustments/mark ups on their IONIQ 5's and they said NO. That was a LIE as every single IONIQ 5 they had in stock had a market/adjustment/mark up.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by sublime1996525

I kind of side with EV boy on this one. I've had the ADM BS done to me, too. I spoke to a dealer, they sent me a quote, then when I arrived there it was a mistake on their part and they couldn't sell without the ADM because demand was so high, a billion people just called and are willing to pay over MSRP, blah blah blah.

I'd say mistakes do happen. If I ever did that, I'd see what I could do to try to make it right. I'm not going to eat thousands of dollars... but I'd try to do something of some value.

If they weren't satisfied with what I could do, that would suck, but pissed off customers is unfortunately something that happens. If it was intentionally misleading, different story of course.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

My question was VERY SPECIFIC. I asked if they add any market adjustments/mark ups and they said NO. That was a LIE as every single IONIQ 5 they had in stock had a market/adjustment/mark up.

...and given that 15 other dealers had substantial markups and this one had multiple units in stock supposedly at MSRP, you didn't think that it was worth a little more discussion or verification to make sure that everybody was aligned?

Yea, they very well may have lied, for whatever reason that I certainly don't understand, but I sure as hell wouldn't be driving far enough to warrant a stop for a hot meal without verifying, even if it was a simple mistake or miscommunication somehow. I'd say that the old adage that "things that sound too good to be true usually are" is pretty applicable here.

[Onebadcad]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

When I bought my Kona Electric in 2019, I had my last pleasant experience with a dealership and it was not in Florida. I never had a positive experience at any Florida dealer. Bought most of my new cars out of state for that reason.

Went as far as Massachusetts to buy a new car (my 2005 C6 Vert).
Also bought a Jeep Patriot for my wife at a dealership in Georgia etc.

I e-mailed with the Hyundai Dealership about the Kona Electric and I asked them to give me a final price after all fees and all applicable rebates.
The price they quoted me was the price I paid. Flew up to Hagerstown/MD, signed the paperwork and drove the car home. NEVER had such a pleasant experience anywhere in Florida. Overpriced vehicles, dealer games and fake advertised prices. Maybe it's just my area but my experience with dealers was horrible.. Before I bought my F150 Supercrew, I went to a local Chevy dealer to look at Silverados. I saw a Extended Cab Silverado 1500 for a really good price and I went to look at it.. Turns out that the advertised price "assumed" $2000 down and $2000 trade in.. They advertise fake prices and only add those things in the fine print.. Why can't they just advertise the REAL price??

Your experience is different than mine.
I have bought 9 new vehicles in Broward County in the last 30 years.
While I did not always buy at the first stealership I visited, I paid the price I negotiated, no bait and switch, I think half of the trade-ins WERE NOT WITH the selling dealership.

With that said, there are more ahole stealerships than honest ones, I usually can figure that out within ten minutes of being in their showroom.

BTW, hyundai of NewPortRichey says they are #1 volume in USA for last six years, surprised they could not beat all others price.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

...and given that 15 other dealers had substantial markups and this one had multiple units in stock supposedly at MSRP, you didn't think that it was worth a little more discussion or verification to make sure that everybody was aligned?

Yea, they very well may have lied, for whatever reason that I certainly don't understand, but I sure as hell wouldn't be driving far enough to warrant a stop for a hot meal without verifying, even if it was a simple mistake or miscommunication somehow. I'd say that the old adage that "things that sound too good to be true usually are" is pretty applicable here.

It's the same strategy as advertising cars that already sold. They want to get you into the door and then use their sales game to sell you a more expensive vehicle. I usually want something in writing/e-mail if the dealer is out of state but considering that it was within 1.5 hours of my home, I just went there, wasting my time.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

Your experience is different than mine.
I have bought 9 new vehicles in Broward County in the last 30 years.
While I did not always buy at the first stealership I visited, I paid the price I negotiated, no bait and switch, I think half of the trade-ins WERE NOT WITH the selling dealership.

With that said, there are more ahole stealerships than honest ones, I usually can figure that out within ten minutes of being in their showroom.

BTW, hyundai of NewPortRichey says they are #1 volume in USA for last six years, surprised they could not beat all others price.

Did you shop for any new vehicle during the supply chain crisis, late 2021 to mid 2022? I actually called Hyundai of New Port Richey. They were at least honest when I called. While they did NOT have a mark up, you had to purchase a car care package (like treatment on paint and seats which is really worth very little) for $3k if you don't live in the local area. As I was 50 miles away, I would have to purchase that $3k car care package to be able to buy the car at MSRP
There reasoning is that if I'm not local to them, I'll have the car serviced somewhere else which costs them money. I see that $3k as a mark up as you are paying $3k for something worth maybe $50.

I was NOT willing to pay a single cent over MSRP. I didn't back then and I wouldn't do that right now.. MSRP is the absolutely maximum I would pay for a car and I would NOT pay for a single dealer add on options. Those are all scams.. Those are cheap items that they sell you at 10 to 100 times their cost.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

With that said, there are more ahole stealerships than honest ones, I usually can figure that out within ten minutes of being in their showroom.

There are some shady mofos just like every other occupation but think about this in a different way. Try to imagine how much of an ahole you would be ... if you had to deal with the type of idiots walking through the showroom all day. A solid 50% are tire kickers with no intent to actually buy. Of the remaining, 50% are never going to get approved through financing. 50% of the remaining 50% are assholes that watched youtube videos who think they're going to "beat" you. Of what remains, another 50% are the people who come in like they're going into battle. The final 6.25% might actually be decent human beings and ok to deal with.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

In that case, it was just information that I got over the phone. I clearly asked if they are selling the IONIQ 5's at MSRP and if there are any mark ups. I was clearly told that there were no mark ups.. Sure, if it was a out of state dealer, I would have asked my questions in an e-mail so that there was a paper trail.
At the time I was shopping for a IONIQ 5 for the wife, I called many dealerships. Most of them were up front with their mark ups. While I still find market adjustments to be unethical, at least those dealerships didn't lie about them. I called like 15 dealerships and Hyundai of Ocala was the first one that said that they won't mark up their IONIQ 5's, so I went there.

So you didn’t have a written quote so you had nothing.

And mark up is not unethical, it’s a business for profit and if the market allows it the seller is going to take advantage of the market.

Are you unethical for charging market rate for your rentals?

[sublime1996525]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I'd say mistakes do happen. If I ever did that, I'd see what I could do to try to make it right. I'm not going to eat thousands of dollars... but I'd try to do something of some value.

If they weren't satisfied with what I could do, that would suck, but pissed off customers is unfortunately something that happens. If it was intentionally misleading, different story of course.

Which is fair. They just had the mentality that if I didn't buy it, someone else will. Which is fine and I don't really get emotional about it. There is really only one dealership chain in Utah that I've gotten very upset with and that is the Larry H Miller group. They've used the lost keys, ADM, tons of add ons, make you wait for hours, and other stereotypical tactics. I do everything I can to avoid them....even though they always seem to have the car I'm looking for lol. But I've never actually bought because of some crap or another.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by sublime1996525

Sorry, what $3,600? I don't see where that number came from.



I kind of side with EV boy on this one. I've had the ADM BS done to me, too. I spoke to a dealer, they sent me a quote, then when I arrived there it was a mistake on their part and they couldn't sell without the ADM because demand was so high, a billion people just called and are willing to pay over MSRP, blah blah blah.



I always send an email and try to deal in email or text. That was everything is written down and it saves a bunch of time. Granted, this doesn't always work but it has saved me a ton of headache. Especially since I always seem to have to buy out of state.

My mistake.
What is the additional $36,400?

[sublime1996525]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

There are some shady mofos just like every other occupation but think about this in a different way. Try to imagine how much of an ahole you would be ... if you had to deal with the type of idiots walking through the showroom all day. A solid 50% are tire kickers with no intent to actually buy. Of the remaining, 50% are never going to get approved through financing. 50% of the remaining 50% are assholes that watched youtube videos who think they're going to "beat" you. Of what remains, another 50% are the people who come in like they're going into battle. The final 6.25% might actually be decent human beings and ok to deal with.

Could this explain why Doug is Doug? I would not make it as a car salesman.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

There are some shady mofos just like every other occupation but think about this in a different way. Try to imagine how much of an ahole you would be ... if you had to deal with the type of idiots walking through the showroom all day. A solid 50% are tire kickers with no intent to actually buy. Of the remaining, 50% are never going to get approved through financing. 50% of the remaining 50% are assholes that watched youtube videos who think they're going to "beat" you. Of what remains, another 50% are the people who come in like they're going into battle. The final 6.25% might actually be decent human beings and ok to deal with.

Here is one example.. You pull up this F150 Lightning on Autotrader..

$39995

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing

Now, look at the fine print in the add. That price includes all available incentives and virtually nobody qualifies for any of them. Just read through the fine print.. That car costs significantly more.. There should be a law that the advertised price is that everyone has to pay and not an unrealistic price that includes down payment, incentives they don't qualify for etc.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

So you didn’t have a written quote so you had nothing.

And mark up is not unethical, it’s a business for profit and if the market allows it the seller is going to take advantage of the market.

Are you unethical for charging market rate for your rentals?

Landlords will raise their rates when property taxes go up, insurance cost goes up etc. etc. as otherwise they lose money.
STEALERSHIPS on the other hand paid the SAME amount for the vehicles to the manufacturer, yet, sold them more expensive. I would have no problem if a manufacturer increases MSRP due to increased cost.. No issues at all with that.. However, STEALERSHIPS did NOT have increased cost on those vehicles. They just wanted more profit as supply was low and they wanted to take advantage of that.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

It's the same strategy as advertising cars that already sold. They want to get you into the door and then use their sales game to sell you a more expensive vehicle. I usually want something in writing/e-mail if the dealer is out of state but considering that it was within 1.5 hours of my home, I just went there, wasting my time.

Somehow I don't think you have even the slightest f-ing clue how car advertising works in this day and age.

It's not a "strategy". Dealers aren't posting their own ads and there is a significant lag, sometimes a week or more between the time a vehicle is gone and the time that an ad gets posted or in this case gets taken down, especially when you get to 3rd/4th tier sites like Autotrader. Facebook marketplace had lags of WEEKS at some points. Generally the software that dealers use has a 24 hour turn (updates overnight) for their primary website. Those are usually pretty close to current. From there, it gets distributed across other networks, each with it's own refresh rate. Some of which are faster than others.

So no, dealerships don't waste their time putting up and paying for advertisements for shit that doesn't exist with the hopes of getting you through the door to mind control you into buying something else. The entire industry is automated, and none of it is fast.

[sublime1996525]

Originally Posted by LATB

My mistake.
What is the additional $36,400?

Oh!

• Taxes and fees - $3,162
• Financing - $9,264
• Fuel - $10,593
• Insurance - $6,939
• Repairs - $934
• Maintenance - $5,412

It's based on 15k miles a year of driving.