The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[GTOguy]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

At current RE values, i'm at about 1.8M net worth. Net worth is really irrelevant. What really matters is what monthly income my assets produce. I don't really care if my net worth is $500k or $2M. All I care is how much money comes in every month. Rents are going up.

I'm in the same boat. Mailbox money. Just wait until you get to be my age and your properties are paid off and it's just pretty much straight income. You'll be able to buy your own soda company.

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

A few reasons:

- Constant stop/start driving
- Short trips
- Return to a large terminal at least every night where they can be charged while being loaded
- Jeff Bezos can brag about being "green"

That kind of business model is a perfect fit for EV delivery vans, as opposed to small lawn service companies.

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I'd say that sums it up nicely.

Amazon delivery drivers make a run to a set location, go back, swap trucks and do it again. They cycle them constantly with an entire section of the business dedicated to logistics and fleet management. There are constant charging cycles and rotations of vehicles (which is why they now deliver overnight). Overnight delivery is not something to make it better for the customer. It's a result of the required charging cycles of the delivery vehicles.

Wow, you guys actually admit that there are scenarios which are perfect for electric vehicles?

That might be one of the signs of the Apocalypse!

[dvarapala]

Originally Posted by TheHammer

Speaking of Amazon EV's. Most of last Summer all of my Amazon deliveries were done with the new Rivian EV's. Drivers told me they were having issues with a fuse blowing when plugging in, had to wait for the battery and ambient temps to cool down before they could plug in to charge.
I haven't seen a single Amazon Rivian EV deliery van in my hood yet this year, hmmm.

Rivian in general has known quality issues that they are still working out. That might by why FedEx uses BrightDrop delivery vans in my area.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Wow, you guys actually admit that there are scenarios which are perfect for electric vehicles?

That might be one of the signs of the Apocalypse!

I'm anti-bullshit, not anti-EV.

Being told that a fleet of Cyber"trucks" will save a landscaper $78k per year... bullshit.
Being told that Teslas have "zero maintenance", never break, and will apparently go to 500k miles with no issues whatsoever... bullshit.
Being told that they help the environment... bullshit.

The plethora of cherry-picked, twisted, and spun arguments telling us how great Elon is... bullshit.

EVs working in some markets in the Amazon system with the Amazon infrastructure, sure.

You want to have an honest discussion about benefits and flaws, great. There are both of those things. Being completely incapable of admitting the negatives and deflecting every time anything comes up, not so much. Putting together a sales pitch completely devoid of reality defending Elon and everything he does at all costs, again, not so much.

GSC3 is completely incapable of acknowledging anything even remotely negative about EVs and in turn keeps pitching out absolute nonsense trying to defend them. His $137k Petunia could burn to the ground tomorrow and he'd be on here telling us that it was a great thing because the heat helped him to keep his meal hot.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Speaking of business math, can any of you Haters explain why companies like Amazon and FedEx are switching over to electric devlivery vans? Love him or hate him, you have to acknowledge that Jeff Bezos is no idiot - what does he see in electric delivery vans? Why are they a superior business case compared to the Ford Transit and Freightliner vans he's been using for the last 2 decades?

Tell me you have ZERO clue of what is going on at Amazon, without actually coming out and saying you have ZERO clue what is going on at Amazon.

Oh wait, you already did. Never mind.

[TheHammer]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

Rivian in general has known quality issues that they are still working out. That might by why FedEx uses BrightDrop delivery vans in my area.

The last few weeks around here, Amazon has been delivering packages driving Ryder van rentals.

[Aerovette]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I'm anti-bullshit, not anti-EV.

Being told that a fleet of Cyber"trucks" will save a landscaper $78k per year... bullshit.
Being told that Teslas have "zero maintenance", never break, and will apparently go to 500k miles with no issues whatsoever... bullshit.
Being told that they help the environment... bullshit.

The plethora of cherry-picked, twisted, and spun arguments telling us how great Elon is... bullshit.

EVs working in some markets in the Amazon system with the Amazon infrastructure, sure.

You want to have an honest discussion about benefits and flaws, great. There are both of those things. Being completely incapable of admitting the negatives and deflecting every time anything comes up, not so much. Putting together a sales pitch completely devoid of reality defending Elon and everything he does at all costs, again, not so much.

GSC3 is completely incapable of acknowledging anything even remotely negative about EVs and in turn keeps pitching out absolute nonsense trying to defend them. His $137k Petunia could burn to the ground tomorrow and he'd be on here telling us that it was a great thing because the heat helped him to keep his meal hot.

I'll add that lithium discussions are plenty, but there is about 67 lbs of copper in a Tesla if I read correctly. No stolen cats, now they yank to motor for copper.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by GTOguy

I'm in the same boat. Mailbox money. Just wait until you get to be my age and your properties are paid off and it's just pretty much straight income. You'll be able to buy your own soda company.

The only RE debt I have is less than $100k on my primary residence. The other homes are free and clear and I hope to have my primary residence paid off in 4 years. My last Mortgage payment is Nov. 2025 but I also have $80k in HELOC debt remaining.. Not a lot.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I'm anti-bullshit, not anti-EV.

Being told that a fleet of Cyber"trucks" will save a landscaper $78k per year... bullshit.
Being told that Teslas have "zero maintenance", never break, and will apparently go to 500k miles with no issues whatsoever... bullshit.
Being told that they help the environment... bullshit.

The plethora of cherry-picked, twisted, and spun arguments telling us how great Elon is... bullshit.

EVs working in some markets in the Amazon system with the Amazon infrastructure, sure.

You want to have an honest discussion about benefits and flaws, great. There are both of those things. Being completely incapable of admitting the negatives and deflecting every time anything comes up, not so much. Putting together a sales pitch completely devoid of reality defending Elon and everything he does at all costs, again, not so much.

GSC3 is completely incapable of acknowledging anything even remotely negative about EVs and in turn keeps pitching out absolute nonsense trying to defend them. His $137k Petunia could burn to the ground tomorrow and he'd be on here telling us that it was a great thing because the heat helped him to keep his meal hot.

That is wrong. I have said many times that there are many scenarios where EV's don't make sense, the biggest group being people who can't charge at home or work. Another group are those who travel in a hurry and no breaks and another group being those who frequently haul large trailers for long distances. The reliability argument is BS because the statistic include service calls that do not affect use of the vehicle. If you have a panel gap, you can still use your truck to haul stuff. If you have a weatherstripping coming lose. You can still use your truck. Teslas rarely break down completely that they need to be towed to the service center. Yes, they have a lot of SMALL issues but they are not breaking down. Most service calls are handled by mobile service that comes to your house. Unlike in the past, you can usually schedule them withing a few days, not weeks or months like it used to be. My car was at the service center once for falcon wing door adjustment and I got a free loaner Tesla for the time it was there. Electric motors have a fraction of the moving parts of a gas or even diesel engine. This reduces the chance of things breaking. As for routine maintenance. I have posted the Tesla maintenance schedule before. The only items in there are to test the brake fluid every year and to replace the cabin air filter. That's it for the life of the car. If the brake fulid tests bad, you need to replace the brake fluid. Not a big deal. I have done that on many cars I have owned myself.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by TheHammer

The last few weeks around here, Amazon has been delivering packages driving Ryder van rentals.

Perhaps its a production or geographic issue.

Central FL is full of the EV Amazon vans. Its all I see anymore.

No idea how many miles an Amazon driver goes in day, Id be wondering about range, but perhaps in a small city they aren't going more than 300 miles.

[TheHammer]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

Perhaps its a production or geographic issue.

Central FL is full of the EV Amazon vans. Its all I see anymore.

No idea how many miles an Amazon driver goes in day, Id be wondering about range, but perhaps in a small city they aren't going more than 300 miles.

Not sure why my hood has seen the decrease of EV's? About 20 miles from a one of their distribution warehouses.

The drivers said they use the EV's for in city delivery only, no out of town, remote areas. They also hate the large windshield, sun cooks them, but they have a cooled seat, that barely makes them comfortable.

[GrandSportC3]

I just read that the Rivian vans have Iron Phosphate battery that can be charged to 100% every day. The vans have about 200 mile range but they are limiting it to 150 to protect the battery and get more years of service out of the vans.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

That is wrong. I have said many times that there are many scenarios where EV's don't make sense, the biggest group being people who can't charge at home or work. Another group are those who travel in a hurry and no breaks and another group being those who frequently haul large trailers for long distances.

That may actually be the first time you didn't twist or exaggerate it so that every 1 of those people was somehow in the wrong.

When you say it, you always exaggerate to things like "heavy trailers across the country in freezing weather through the mountains". No, the limitation is hauling things anywhere beyond a single metro area. Not cross country. Not only in mountains. Not only in freezing weather. You twist it to make it sound like it's some incredibly small percentage who is doing abnormal things. The reality is they suck at hauling things any farther than a local Home Depot.

When you talk about road trips you inevitably feel the need to add some bullshit about "normal people", "danger to others", etc, etc. to minimize the limitations. It's not just people that cannonball wherever they are going. I don't know of a single person that wants to sit in a gas station for an hour at a time, multiple times in a day. You spin it so that it's unsafe, abnormal drivers who piss in bottles and tape their eyes open. The reality is that to anybody who doesn't want to stop for hours in a day, they suck for long distances.

Again, you always twist, spin, and caveat the limitations to make it sound like it's the drivers that are the problem.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

The reliability argument is BS because the statistic include service calls that do not affect use of the vehicle. If you have a panel gap, you can still use your truck to haul stuff. If you have a weatherstripping coming lose. You can still use your truck. Teslas rarely break down completely that they need to be towed to the service center. Yes, they have a lot of SMALL issues but they are not breaking down. Most service calls are handled by mobile service that comes to your house.

Having to be towed is your metric? Yea, who cares if your $137k car rattles like a 1984 Buick and has parts falling off of it. As long as it keeps moving, all is good. Uhhm. No.

With that said, I would certainly hope that having to have your car towed is not a common thing in 2024. That also wasn't the comment. You, as you always do, have deflected and twisted into something else. The discussion wasn't about them breaking within a year. It wasn't even about the "minor" things, although I'd imagine most owners who spent a million dollars on a fleet would get annoyed when every 1 of them had a dozen "minor" issues. The comment was directed at your idiotic "500k miles" claims. It was directed at your bullshit that they will somehow drive for all eternity and never break with no maintenance. Again, that 500k mile thing. Like I said. Bullshit.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Electric motors have a fraction of the moving parts of a gas or even diesel engine. This reduces the chance of things breaking.

Uhmmmm. That is not even remotely close to how things work. Less parts doesn't mean less frequency. What percentage of modern ICE engines fail under 200k miles? I'll give you a hint. It's not many. The discussion was specifically about using Cyber"trucks" as fleet vehicles that (you claim) drive 55k miles per year. The comments that they will go 500k miles with no maintenance and will never break is absolute bullshit. Motors break. Controllers break. Electronics break. In the case of the Cyber"trucks", acting as if the suspension components are going to last forever with no maintenance is absolute ignorance at it's finest. They break. When. Not if. When they break, they are going to cost a hell of a lot more than an F150 to fix and the logistics is WAY more complicated with the work having to be done by Tesla as opposed to fleet trucks that can be repaired with little to no wait by any mechanic. When it comes to out of warranty work, labor is more expensive. Parts are more expensive. Time down will absolutely be longer than traditional trucks. All of which are very detrimental to a business.

When faced with that topic, you deflected to only the battery and some hypothetical future state that doesn't even exist at this point. You deflect. You twist. You ignore the reality. It's what you do.

So no, the reliability argument is not BS. The reliability argument is absolutely relevant until you twist it into something else to try to support your Elon narrative.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

As for routine maintenance. I have posted the Tesla maintenance schedule before. The only items in there are to test the brake fluid every year and to replace the cabin air filter. That's it for the life of the car. If the brake fulid tests bad, you need to replace the brake fluid. Not a big deal. I have done that on many cars I have owned myself.

Great. The "routine maintenance" needed on a modern ICE vehicle can be done in about 15 minutes a year.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by SurfnSun

No idea how many miles an Amazon driver goes in day, Id be wondering about range, but perhaps in a small city they aren't going more than 300 miles.

The route is limited by packages.

They deliver what's in the van and go swap it for another one that's already loaded. Having short routes and twice as many trucks as drivers so they are always charging as the other is running is what allows them to be successful.

[Onebadcad]

I was going to trade in all three of my ICE race cars today and get me one of those amazing cyber****s, but saw this and decided to hold off:

Tesla recalls Cybertruck due to accelerator pedal that can stick

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/19/busin...all/index.html

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Great. The "routine maintenance" needed on a modern ICE vehicle can be done in about 15 minutes a year.

Wait, what??? That can't possibly be true, at least according to GSC3. ICE vehicles require constant and repetitive maintenance.


You're correct of course. My 2014 Vette has had two sets of tires. It gets an annual oil & filter change. I've changed the wiper blades a couple of times. That's pretty much it for maintenance in over 10 years of ownership and over 40,000 miles.

[BRUIZER]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

I was going to trade in all three of my ICE race cars today and get me one of those amazing cyber****s, but saw this and decided to hold off:

Tesla recalls Cybertruck due to accelerator pedal that can stick

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/19/busin...all/index.html

Good GOD those things are hideous to look at.
Just when I thought tesla owner couldn't possibly have worst taste in vehicles.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Onebadcad

I was going to trade in all three of my ICE race cars today and get me one of those amazing cyber****s, but saw this and decided to hold off:

Tesla recalls Cybertruck due to accelerator pedal that can stick

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/19/busin...all/index.html

GSC3: It still drives so that's a minor problem.

[SurfnSun]

Originally Posted by TheHammer

They also hate the large windshield, sun cooks them, but they have a cooled seat, that barely makes them comfortable.

I have owned white cars for the last decade or more.

I got a black loaner SUV from Cadillac this week, no tinted windows. I was stunned by how much hotter that car is. I can only imagine that windshield with no tint being terrible.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

That may actually be the first time you didn't twist or exaggerate it so that every 1 of those people was somehow in the wrong.

When you say it, you always exaggerate to things like "heavy trailers across the country in freezing weather through the mountains". No, the limitation is hauling things anywhere beyond a single metro area. Not cross country. Not only in mountains. Not only in freezing weather. You twist it to make it sound like it's some incredibly small percentage who is doing abnormal things. The reality is they suck at hauling things any farther than a local Home Depot.

When you talk about road trips you inevitably feel the need to add some bullshit about "normal people", "danger to others", etc, etc. to minimize the limitations. It's not just people that cannonball wherever they are going. I don't know of a single person that wants to sit in a gas station for an hour at a time, multiple times in a day. You spin it so that it's unsafe, abnormal drivers who piss in bottles and tape their eyes open. The reality is that to anybody who doesn't want to stop for hours in a day, they suck for long distances.

Again, you always twist, spin, and caveat the limitations to make it sound like it's the drivers that are the problem.



Having to be towed is your metric? Yea, who cares if your $137k car rattles like a 1984 Buick and has parts falling off of it. As long as it keeps moving, all is good. Uhhm. No.

With that said, I would certainly hope that having to have your car towed is not a common thing in 2024. That also wasn't the comment. You, as you always do, have deflected and twisted into something else. The discussion wasn't about them breaking within a year. It wasn't even about the "minor" things, although I'd imagine most owners who spent a million dollars on a fleet would get annoyed when every 1 of them had a dozen "minor" issues. The comment was directed at your idiotic "500k miles" claims. It was directed at your bullshit that they will somehow drive for all eternity and never break with no maintenance. Again, that 500k mile thing. Like I said. Bullshit.




Uhmmmm. That is not even remotely close to how things work. Less parts doesn't mean less frequency. What percentage of modern ICE engines fail under 200k miles? I'll give you a hint. It's not many. The discussion was specifically about using Cyber"trucks" as fleet vehicles that (you claim) drive 55k miles per year. The comments that they will go 500k miles with no maintenance and will never break is absolute bullshit. Motors break. Controllers break. Electronics break. In the case of the Cyber"trucks", acting as if the suspension components are going to last forever with no maintenance is absolute ignorance at it's finest. They break. When. Not if. When they break, they are going to cost a hell of a lot more than an F150 to fix and the logistics is WAY more complicated with the work having to be done by Tesla as opposed to fleet trucks that can be repaired with little to no wait by any mechanic. When it comes to out of warranty work, labor is more expensive. Parts are more expensive. Time down will absolutely be longer than traditional trucks. All of which are very detrimental to a business.

When faced with that topic, you deflected to only the battery and some hypothetical future state that doesn't even exist at this point. You deflect. You twist. You ignore the reality. It's what you do.

So no, the reliability argument is not BS. The reliability argument is absolutely relevant until you twist it into something else to try to support your Elon narrative.



Great. The "routine maintenance" needed on a modern ICE vehicle can be done in about 15 minutes a year.

Come on... There is a reason why virtually every highway exit has food joints. It's because most people stop for food on road trips. They don't travel shotgun style without breaks.
If you are a business, you need your work vehicles to perform a job. It does not matter if they have perfect panel gaps or if the cup holder doesn't stay retracted or that weatherstripping is coming loose.
Not sure about frequency of engine failure but it is a statistical FACT that the average car lasts 200k miles.

https://cascadecollision.com/blog/wh...%2C000%20miles.

It doesn't really matter what the cause is that cars are scrapped. It's usually because repairs at that mileage exceed the value of the car. That's when most cars are scrapped.

I owned very very few cars that I owned past 150k miles. Last high mileage cars were my wife's Grand Caravan which we kept to 220k or 230k miles or so and a Silverado 1500 V6 that had 170k miles. I had so many issues with that truck.. Engine and transmission were fine but lots of issues with injectors, fuel system and many other issues. I was wrenching on that thing all the time. Had I paid a mechanic for all the work I did, I would have exceeded the value of the truck many times.