Nelson Mandella has passed away.......

[Cybercowboy]

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

What are you talking about? I don't recall such an event. Surely the media would have been all over it if it were true and we would all know about it.

Well, to his credit he did divorce her. She and her thugs were brutal.

People seem to think that Mandela was a political prisoner for 27 years. That is not correct. He was arrested on 23 separate counts including sabotage, terrorism, and attempt to overthrow the government. He was also offered release from prison for over two decades if he would renounce terrorism. He refused.

The ANC that he was a top official in was and is responsible for unspeakable violence and an ongoing genocide of white South Africans. His ANC replaced a brutal, racist regime with a brutal, racist regime - and applauded for it.

Pardon me if I don't get all misty eyed over his passing.

*shrug*

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Admiral Blue

But...but...but...he got that nobel peace prize thing...all these allegations cannot be true, right? I mean, they just don't hand that prize out to anyone.

You are correct sir.

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Cybercowboy

Well, to his credit he did divorce her. She and her thugs were brutal.

People seem to think that Mandela was a political prisoner for 27 years. That is not correct. He was arrested on 23 separate counts including sabotage, terrorism, and attempt to overthrow the government. He was also offered release from prison for over two decades if he would renounce terrorism. He refused.

The ANC that he was a top official in was and is responsible for unspeakable violence and an ongoing genocide of white South Africans. His ANC replaced a brutal, racist regime with a brutal, racist regime - and applauded for it.

Pardon me if I don't get all misty eyed over his passing.

*shrug*

So, he was in prison for his beliefs.

[Sea Six]

I'd like to hear from folks that continue to express empathy for Mandela.

Now that you know the whole story about him, assuming you didn't up until now, please explain why the good things he did are enough to overshadow all the horrible things he has done.

[Cybercowboy]

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

So, he was in prison for his beliefs.

I guess you could say that. Pedophiles are in prison because they believe screwing kids is fine. They are in prison because of their beliefs.

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Entropy

Why did GW Bush award him the Presidential Medal of Freedom?

Of Mr. Mandela, who led the fight against apartheid in South Africa, Mr. Bush said his moral stature "has made Nelson Mandela perhaps the most revered statesman of our time."

I guess W was either ignorant of Mandela's past or was cool with it.

[CP]

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

What are you talking about? I don't recall such an event. Surely the media would have been all over it if it were true and we would all know about it.

http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/report...Volume%202.pdf

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by CP

http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/report...Volume%202.pdf

Thanks for the link, but I was being facetious.

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

I guess W was either ignorant of Mandela's past or was cool with it.

Or realized the extent of what was required to create the change.

Change is not easy, and any good student of history will tell you that it is often violent. Few have been able to make changes of great magnitude happen with little to no violence, and the best examples happened in the 20th century. Decry the methods that Mandela used, but one cannot argue with the results.

Our own country was born out of violence, a refusal to be put into chains at a level that's not even comparable to what the blacks dealt with. Motivating a large group of people to move forward is not easy (leadership never is). The fact that change happened, and apartheid removed without an all out civil war is an amazing feat.

You may not like him personally for his beliefs, and that's fine. However, accomplishment can't be ignored.

[DJ_Critterus]

Originally Posted by Dan Dlabay

He was a man of peace and conviction. He stood up to a repressive government and stood up for the people. May he rest in peace and be blessed by God.

Yep. A real man of peace. Got this from the Proud To Be An Infidel page on FB. There are plenty of other sources out there, too.

The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve attention.

He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

[Cybercowboy]

Originally Posted by Entropy

Or realized the extent of what was required to create the change.

Change is not easy, and any good student of history will tell you that it is often violent. Few have been able to make changes of great magnitude happen with little to no violence, and the best examples happened in the 20th century. Decry the methods that Mandela used, but one cannot argue with the results.

Our own country was born out of violence, a refusal to be put into chains at a level that's not even comparable to what the blacks dealt with. Motivating a large group of people to move forward is not easy (leadership never is). The fact that change happened, and apartheid removed without an all out civil war is an amazing feat.

You may not like him personally for his beliefs, and that's fine. However, accomplishment can't be ignored.

Here, I'll let one of his own argue the results.

Instead, listen to Sonia Hruska. She was an early supporter of Mandela and worked in his administration.

“After about six years,” Hruska said, “I realized something serious is wrong; the communist elements are taking over, it’s not what we were promised.”

What did she see that the rest of the world missed?

“As a business owner, I can get 25 years in jail time if I do employ a white person, for instance,” she said. “It is totally ridiculous; you cannot have imagined that affirmative action could have gone so far.”

Today, in South Africa’s white population of 4 million, 1 million live in utter poverty.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

Hruska describes routine, violent, racist atrocities of almost unimaginable proportions: Kidnap murders, home invasions, gang rapes.

“It’s heinous torture,” Hruska explained. “Even children as young as 2 months old get burned with hot water, get wrapped in newspaper and burned.”

In the case of one family, Hruska described a black mob breaking into a home, waiting for the white family to get home, then raping the mother in front of the father and son to see. Then, after killing the mother, they killed the father and son by plunging them into boiling water.

She said: “There is no easy way of saying exactly how these people are tortured. The standard would be a hot iron, electric iron, boiling water … and these are carried out for hours.”


Read more at Don’t mourn for Mandela

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Entropy

Or realized the extent of what was required to create the change.

Change is not easy, and any good student of history will tell you that it is often violent. Few have been able to make changes of great magnitude happen with little to no violence, and the best examples happened in the 20th century. Decry the methods that Mandela used, but one cannot argue with the results.

Our own country was born out of violence, a refusal to be put into chains at a level that's not even comparable to what the blacks dealt with. Motivating a large group of people to move forward is not easy (leadership never is). The fact that change happened, and apartheid removed without an all out civil war is an amazing feat.

You may not like him personally for his beliefs, and that's fine. However, accomplishment can't be ignored.

This is what I have a real problem with. Which beliefs are you speaking of? Anti-apartheid? I have no problem with those beliefs and agree apartheid was very wrong. Plotting and being involved in violent acts that harmed and killed many innocent victims, including children? No, I do not agree with those kind of beliefs.

You speak of our own violent past. Were our founding fathers involved in acts of terrorism? Did the framers of our constitution plot to blow up buildings where innocent people were? Or did we go to war and fight battles?

Do the ends always justify the means? If that is so, we can rationalize many acts of terrorism.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Sea Six

Even a saint like Nelson Mandela?

Here's a picture of a guy wearing his St. Mandela pendant:

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by Cybercowboy

Here, I'll let one of his own argue the results.

So there are still issues that need to be resolved. Not surprising. I am disgusted by the actions, and I don't plan on visiting South Africa any time soon. Atrocities should be brought to light and made example of. However I'm not going to throw out all the good that comes from being a catalyst in the removal of apartheid.

Why is everyone in this thread under the delusion that change happens easily, peacefully and with no side effects? Have we become that poor at history? Have we forgotten our own history?

That his party turned to violence is not surprising, as they were exposed to that through apartheid. The fact that their are still some pockets of resistance is not surprising. The Civil War in the US has been over for almost 150 years, and yet it's still a hot button issue with many people, even on this forum.

People follow the leader they want.

Originally Posted by Millenium Vette

This is what I have a real problem with. Which beliefs are you speaking of? Anti-apartheid? I have no problem with those beliefs and agree apartheid was very wrong. Plotting and being involved in violent acts that harmed and killed many innocent victims, including children? No, I do not agree with those kind of beliefs.

You speak of our own violent past. Were our founding fathers involved in acts of terrorism? Did the framers of our constitution plot to blow up buildings where innocent people were? Or did we go to war and fight battles?

Do the ends always justify the means? If that is so, we can rationalize many acts of terrorism.

Throwing tea into the harbor may be considered a terrorist act (destruction of property to instill fear in manufacturers) or even this:



Whether the ends justifies the means is a matter of personal belief. For some here, clearly they don't think so. Others see it as so.
Same could be said of the Civil War. There are people in this thread who abhor what happened and feel that nothing could justify what happened 150 years ago. Others think different. It's personal.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Entropy

Or realized the extent of what was required to create the change.

Change is not easy, and any good student of history will tell you that it is often violent. Few have been able to make changes of great magnitude happen with little to no violence, and the best examples happened in the 20th century. Decry the methods that Mandela used, but one cannot argue with the results.

Our own country was born out of violence, a refusal to be put into chains at a level that's not even comparable to what the blacks dealt with. Motivating a large group of people to move forward is not easy (leadership never is). The fact that change happened, and apartheid removed without an all out civil war is an amazing feat.

You may not like him personally for his beliefs, and that's fine. However, accomplishment can't be ignored.

I agree with you that all sorts of folks engaged in a fight for freedom have employed terrorism. Look at Israel. They were practically born of terrorism. Stern Gang? Irgun? Ben Gurion? Think the Irish would have even the limited autonomy they have today without the IRA waging its prolonged campaign?

What we need to look at is, when the battle has been won, then what? What people are arguing here is that what replaced apartheid is no better than apartheid itself.

I met an Afrikaner who fled S. Africa and emigrated to the US after the fall. You probably know who I am talking about, he was on CF, met him at a CF dinner in Houston a few years back. The personal stories he had of that time were.....disturbing.

[Sea Six]

Hey, Entropy... thanks for giving me pause to consider Mandela from another viewpoint.

It's inspired me to consider another individual from the pages of history. Look at all the good things Adolf Hitler did for his people:

-he rebuilt the German economy which lay in ruins after WW1.

-he implemented race purity laws and a euthanasia program. (although thos is seen as 'evil' by multiculturalists and leftists.)

-stopped the spread of Communism into the heart of Europe

-held 2 successful Olympics in 1936

-created the first pan-european army (Waffen-SS)


Cancer
In December 1933 the Reich Anticancer Committee was founded to better organize and coordinate the nationwide research towards cancer. A lot of attention was being paid to preventive medicine, especially early detection. Later on, even more emphasis was laid upon prevention.

In the middle of the 1933's, 6 to 10 percent of all dead bodies in Germany were subjected to autopsy, giving statisticians the opportunity to analyze cancer rates.

In 1936 a study based on the autopsy figures of about 125,000 men (an impressive figure, it was the largest study of its kind anywhere in the world) was ready, showing that 18 percent of German men had died from cancer.

Tobacco
Hitler also initiated a war against this evil thing. Smoking got banned more and more, except in the Army. He or Himmler later admitted that was a mistake, but the initial reason was to keep moral high.

Due to the measures and propaganda against the use of tobacco, up till the 1950's the huge drop in cancer rates, compared with other countries, was visible. Hitler saved thousands of lives.

Child Labor
April 30, 1938: Youth Protection Law: also later on, children and young mothers got barred from working under specific circumstances.

Alcohol
Different measures were taken to i.e. the 1940 "Operation Tea", in which the consumption of non-alcoholic beverages at work was stimulated by sending all factories were workers worked under high temperature circumstances were supplied with tea.

Healthy food
German bakeries were required to produce whole-grain bread.

Healthy food was marked with the seal of approval of the NSDAP's Office of Public Health.

Meat vs. Vegetables: "Too much meat can make you sick", suggesting soybeans as subsitutes for meat, etc.

Animal Rights
A ban on vivisection.

Tell you what. This upcoming April 30, let's all celebrate the man's life and remember all of the good changes he brought to the world.

And I'll say this in advance, people. Don't... DON'T... even think about bringing up any violence he did, whether it was fairly or unfairly acted against a particular group of people. After all, change is difficult to attain without violence, so let's just sweep it under the rug while we celebrate the wonderful good things he did.

Heck... let's nominate him for the Sainthood.

[Sea Six]

And while Mussolini was in charge, the trains ran on time.

Yay, Mussolini!

[Millenium Vette]

Originally Posted by Entropy

So there are still issues that need to be resolved. Not surprising. I am disgusted by the actions, and I don't plan on visiting South Africa any time soon. Atrocities should be brought to light and made example of. However I'm not going to throw out all the good that comes from being a catalyst in the removal of apartheid.

Why is everyone in this thread under the delusion that change happens easily, peacefully and with no side effects? Have we become that poor at history? Have we forgotten our own history?

That his party turned to violence is not surprising, as they were exposed to that through apartheid. The fact that their are still some pockets of resistance is not surprising. The Civil War in the US has been over for almost 150 years, and yet it's still a hot button issue with many people, even on this forum.

People follow the leader they want.





Throwing tea into the harbor may be considered a terrorist act (destruction of property to instill fear in manufacturers) or even this:



Whether the ends justifies the means is a matter of personal belief. For some here, clearly they don't think so. Others see it as so.
Same could be said of the Civil War. There are people in this thread who abhor what happened and feel that nothing could justify what happened 150 years ago. Others think different. It's personal.

What I dislike is the media's portrayal of Mandela. It is revisionist history. I would have no problem with it if they would be honest in their coverage of the man, and I am not just speaking of the postmortem reporting. I think as far as people believing that the ends justifies the means in this instance, it is about being ignorant of Mandela's past rather than thinking that acts of terrorism committed by him were justifiable.

[kingpin]

South African women are hot!

[Sea Six]

Originally Posted by Sea Six

I'd like to hear from folks that continue to express empathy for Mandela.

Now that you know the whole story about him, assuming you didn't up until now, please explain why the good things he did are enough to overshadow all the horrible things he has done.

Cat got your collective tongues?

Tell us party-poopers why our position is wrong, and we're simply a bunch of haters just because our political philosophies aren't liberal enough for you.