The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, there should be no laws protecting customers from being misled, right?

Those laws already exist. You have not posted evidence of customers being misled. What you perceive as misleading dealership advertising actually isn’t. You may not like the presentation but that doesn’t mean it’s misleading.

[Kevin68]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Still irrelevant. Tesla followed the EPA guidelines for range testing. That's what matters. If Tesla stayed within the rules of Testing, there is no issue.

Sorry, but it does matter. The EPA controlled for AC/heater/aggressive driving and high speed use (even though you stated it was FACT that they did not).

So why doesn't a real world Tesla perform as tested? You're the one making these claims/defending the disparity between EPA #'s and real world numbers. Please explain.

Tesla doesn't test cars BTW, EPA does. How could you possibly know that the rules were followed? Do all Tesla drivers drive like maniacs? Or is this just trust in government testing? (And don't make me find a yellow pad and hunt down your past statements about your distrust of government.)

Full disclosure, I'm not anti-EV. We had a 240V-50A dedicated outlet built into the garage of our new-ish house. Currently, we think they are overrated/overpriced and not right for us. We're open to that changing.

I do appreciate your diligence in responding to the gang tackle. I think your (and Aero's) heart is in a good place. You are just missing a few critical underlying principles of the American experiment and free-market principles. You are a hard-working/tax paying (I assume)/citizen-resident who seems to love your family and work in their best interest. I salute you for that. Rather than assert what you think is common sense, you might better-served by listening and asking questions about concepts that challenge your sensibilities.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

I know many of you have been worried about how we'll be able to generate enough electricity to charge all the EVs. Well you can relax - Bill Gates to the rescue!

https://www.eenews.net/articles/bill...clear-reactor/

Not news, and won’t operate for a decade or more if ever.

I’m not worried about that anymore, I’m now consumed with worrying about misleading advertising that GSC3 says exists but for which he can’t provide one actual example of.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

Sorry, but it does matter. The EPA controlled for AC/heater/aggressive driving and high speed use (even though you stated it was FACT that they did not).

So why doesn't a real world Tesla perform as tested? You're the one making these claims/defending the disparity between EPA #'s and real world numbers. Please explain.

Tesla doesn't test cars BTW, EPA does. How could you possibly know that the rules were followed? Do all Tesla drivers drive like maniacs? Or is this just trust in government testing? (And don't make me find a yellow pad and hunt down your past statements about your distrust of government.)

Full disclosure, I'm not anti-EV. We had a 240V-50A dedicated outlet built into the garage of our new-ish house. Currently, we think they are overrated/overpriced and not right for us. We're open to that changing.

I do appreciate your diligence in responding to the gang tackle. I think your (and Aero's) heart is in a good place. You are just missing a few critical underlying principles of the American experiment and free-market principles. You are a hard-working/tax paying (I assume)/citizen-resident who seems to love your family and work in their best interest. I salute you for that. Rather than assert what you think is common sense, you might better-served by listening and asking questions about concepts that challenge your sensibilities.

Oliver is a great American.

[ricks327]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

I know many of you have been worried about how we'll be able to generate enough electricity to charge all the EVs. Well you can relax - Bill Gates to the rescue!

https://www.eenews.net/articles/bill...clear-reactor/

Are they allowed in Calif?

[Rikki Z-06]

Originally Posted by dvarapala

I know many of you have been worried about how we'll be able to generate enough electricity to charge all the EVs. Well you can relax - Bill Gates to the rescue!

https://www.eenews.net/articles/bill...clear-reactor/

Kinda like y'all's high speed train?

[BRUIZER]

Originally Posted by ricks327

Are they allowed in Calif?

Good one!

It took 15yrs to fight environmental nutjobs and get past CA regulations just to build a seawater desalination plant in Carlsbad.

Imagine the amount of red tape in CA to build a nuclear reactor anywhere in the state nowadays.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Aerovette

I am not sure what you are seeing as harmful or what type of protection is needed.

I'll bet you bought a pair of X-ray glasses from the back of a comic book and that's how this all started.

So, misleading someone is not harmful?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Just like dealers are well within the rules of disclosure and truth in advertising.

Thanks for acknowledging that there is indeed no issue.

I'm not saying that they are not within the law. Just because it's within the law doesn't make it right or not misleading.
Just like 10 years ago, you were able to shop for a car nationwide using the most common car sites/apps and you could sort by price and you would indeed find the cars that are actually the cheapest ones first.
Even though for example the Model Y qualifies for the full tax credit, Tesla does NOT advertise the reduced price first. The bold, large text price is the price without any conditional incentives. There is a smaller price below that indicates the price after tax credit. Not everyone qualifies for the tax credit, therefore, it shouldn't be taken out of the advertised price. Same thing goes with loyalty discounts. As a Cybertruck reservation holder, I can get $1000 off a Model 3/Y until 3/31. The price that I get to see does not show the $1000 taken out for everyone as it is a conditional one. That is non misleading advertising.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Those laws already exist. You have not posted evidence of customers being misled. What you perceive as misleading dealership advertising actually isn’t. You may not like the presentation but that doesn’t mean it’s misleading.

What do you think is the reason why dealers list cars for a price that the VAST MAJORITY of people will not be able to get? If not to mislead people, why do they do it if not to mislead people to think that the car is actually cheaper than it is?
I understand that people with half a brain won't get misled but unfortunately, there are many people who don't even have half a brain.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

Sorry, but it does matter. The EPA controlled for AC/heater/aggressive driving and high speed use (even though you stated it was FACT that they did not).

So why doesn't a real world Tesla perform as tested? You're the one making these claims/defending the disparity between EPA #'s and real world numbers. Please explain.

Tesla doesn't test cars BTW, EPA does. How could you possibly know that the rules were followed? Do all Tesla drivers drive like maniacs? Or is this just trust in government testing? (And don't make me find a yellow pad and hunt down your past statements about your distrust of government.)

Full disclosure, I'm not anti-EV. We had a 240V-50A dedicated outlet built into the garage of our new-ish house. Currently, we think they are overrated/overpriced and not right for us. We're open to that changing.

I do appreciate your diligence in responding to the gang tackle. I think your (and Aero's) heart is in a good place. You are just missing a few critical underlying principles of the American experiment and free-market principles. You are a hard-working/tax paying (I assume)/citizen-resident who seems to love your family and work in their best interest. I salute you for that. Rather than assert what you think is common sense, you might better-served by listening and asking questions about concepts that challenge your sensibilities.

Again, regardless what the rules for testing say, car makers are required to follow the rules of testing. It is not the car manufacturers rules.. It's the EPA's rules. Unless Tesla cheated and did not follow the rules, there is no issue. If they indeed cheated, they should be sued and fined. If they didn't, I don't see a problem.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

What do you think is the reason why dealers list cars for a price that the VAST MAJORITY of people will not be able to get? If not to mislead people, why do they do it if not to mislead people to think that the car is actually cheaper than it is?
I understand that people with half a brain won't get misled but unfortunately, there are many people who don't even have half a brain.

It is marketing.
If one is in the half brain category they probably should not be buying a new car.

You are arguing that someone doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that there are some discounts that may not apply to them. And you want to share the road with these people?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

So, misleading someone is not harmful?

You do realize that you could category almost all advertising for any product "misleading".

Do women really think that using the latest hair color or makeup will turn them into the gorgeous model that is showing them the product?
Or the latest cleaning product?
How about ads for men, you think a certain brand tire or beer will make you as cool and good looking as the dude pitching the product?

When I'm watchin' my TV
And a man comes on and tells me
How white my shirts can be
But, he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke
The same cigarettes as me

[ricks327]

Originally Posted by Rikki Z-06

Kinda like y'all's high speed train?

[Kevin68]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Again, regardless what the rules for testing say, car makers are required to follow the rules of testing. It is not the car manufacturers rules.. It's the EPA's rules. Unless Tesla cheated and did not follow the rules, there is no issue. If they indeed cheated, they should be sued and fined. If they didn't, I don't see a problem.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Just because it's within the law doesn't make it right or not misleading.

Dude, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. SMH

You made two completely opposite arguments within a period of 4 minutes.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

What do you think is the reason why dealers list cars for a price that the VAST MAJORITY of people will not be able to get? If not to mislead people, why do they do it if not to mislead people to think that the car is actually cheaper than it is?

You’ve been asked repeatedly for just one example of this. You still haven’t posted one. Why is that?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

It is marketing.
If one is in the half brain category they probably should not be buying a new car.

You are arguing that someone doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that there are some discounts that may not apply to them. And you want to share the road with these people?

Yes, there are people who just see the low number and based on that go to the dealership. That's exactly what they want. They want to get people into the door so that they can use their "game". For me, commissioned sales people are somewhere near the bottom of professions.. The absolutely bottom however are ambulance chasing lawyers.. Commissioned sales people come right after that. I'm not talking about ALL sales people. I'm talking about those who try to fool people and sell them something they don't need OR sell them something at a way too high priced, making them believe that they got a deal. Yes, there are honest sales people out there but many are absolute scum. I personally dealt with a few.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

You do realize that you could category almost all advertising for any product "misleading".

Do women really think that using the latest hair color or makeup will turn them into the gorgeous model that is showing them the product?
Or the latest cleaning product?
How about ads for men, you think a certain brand tire or beer will make you as cool and good looking as the dude pitching the product?

When I'm watchin' my TV
And a man comes on and tells me
How white my shirts can be
But, he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke
The same cigarettes as me

Of course, marketing is there to make a product appealing. Most of advertising can't make QUANTIFYABLE claims about a product that are not true. For example, a supplement that I used to take (Algal DHA) used to claim that it improves memory. However, it turns out that there was nothing that backs it up. They were sued and the product us now off the market. They lied and they lost in court. It's like advertising a fake price.. If you have an ad on TV with no disclaimer saying that a particular product is $39.99 but the reality is that the product is $59.99 and was never $39.99.. There is a problem. Sure, some claims can't be quantified like "the product makes you look cool" or "chicks will love if you drive that car".. But lying about specs or price can get you sued. Sure, many adds have a fast talking voice reading all the disclaimers at the end of the ad to prevent them from getting sued.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Kevin68

Dude, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. SMH

You made two completely opposite arguments within a period of 4 minutes.

Why not do both, change the standard of EPA testing to where it reflects the mpg or range of real world driving and do the same with advertising a vehicles price where it actually reflects the actual price and not some fictional price that most can't get?? I'm all for it.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

You’ve been asked repeatedly for just one example of this. You still haven’t posted one. Why is that?

Run a search on any vehicle you choose on Autotrader. Sort by price, low to high. Go to the dealer and try to buy the car for the price that you find. Good Luck.