are you a "cheap labor Conservative?"

[Z06PDQ]

Defeat the Right in Three Minutes | Conceptual Guerilla

[Z06PDQ]

I'll take that as a definite *YES* please don't "whup my ass."

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by TxAg

So much for an intelligent response.

Try reading it again and actually comprehend what was "said".

Then respond.




Don't worry, your savior's new POS medial system will be sure to put you first in line for refusal of their rationed care.

in order to have "an intelligent response" you would have to to post an intelligent reply. all I see is more hate spewing & name calling so very typical of you.BTW, I'm not "worried."

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by TxAg

You post that link and accuse me of name calling. More hypocrisy.

Care to address the points I made here:
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/p...html#post44005

If not, then you be default concede you have nada, zip, zero intelligent to add. Only biased, liberal, socialist, progressive rhetoric.

Ball is in your court.

couple of things.[1] terms like "whore & idiot" are considered name calling.[2] Grumpy doesn't have your back here & personal threats are a good way to get your ass banned. you're welcome.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by TxAg

Are you an expensive labor (ie. union whore) liberal?


So far I have yet to meat a neoliberal, progressive, socialist that can understand conservative positions. But hey, there's a first time for everything so let's see what this bright mind has to offer.
I understand them very well. so does the author.
Strike 1.
Companies will pay what they feel the value of a position is for a particular job. No one legally in this country is going to work for free or next to nothing for a job which requires a good education, intelligence and thinking. You know, jobs union workers probably won't be doing. :lol

and again you paint with a broad brush. all unions aren't evil & detrimental to a company's success. I'll use my industry [railroad] as an example.the companies that are experiencing record profits in a recession are all Class I roads with strong union membership. the small, non union ones are lagging.

Strike 2.
A "minimum wage" sets a false bottom for a particular job or position.

why is it you are concerned with a "bottom" to earnings,yet the top is "sky is the limit?" it reinforces what the author said.

Strike 3, Out 1.
I'm a conservative and I'm not a fan of NAFTA. I think the US got screwed. Instead of "free trade" most conservatives I know want FAIR TRADE. There is a difference between the two. But hey, keep painting with broad brush and worn out paint. :lol
in that case we agree. Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound" has bit us squarely in the ass.

Strike 1, Out 1
Most conservatives I know oppose abortion (why can't you grab some sack and use the word) because it involves ending a innocent human life. There's just something about it that's just not right. The above anology interestingly leaves out any mention of a father. Not shocking from the anti-male/father left though.
and some of you believe it is a woman's choice & in some cases necessary. some of us do,too.


Strike 2, Out 1
No conservatives don't like unions because they have out lived their usefulness. Sure at one time unions were a necessary evil. That time, like many government programs, has come and gone.
see what I said about *my* industry. both unions & companies are setting records. these are Fortune 500 companies over 100 years old.

Strike 3, Out 2
Nope. It's because conservatives belive in personal responsibility, which this great country was founded upon. It was not created by obtrusive national government giving and taking away things we have worked for. Perhaps rereading about the revolution should be required for all the liberal, progressive, socialist, big government types.

perhaps reading Mussolini's fascism should be something for you to do.

Strike 1, Out 2
Nope. It's quite the opposite. People like Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson and the like are fully supportive of what political party again? If you don't know the answer please climb out of the rock you've been living under and join the rest of us. Only a complete idiot would try to assert conservatives do so. Then again, the OP has a nasty habit of making false accusations about people with no facts to back them up.

I'll see those & raise you Beck,Limbaugh & Malkin.
I doubt there will be any intelligent responses to this, but hope springs eternal.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by TxAg

1. Try addressing the topic of your thread in this response:
https://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/p...html#post44005

2.Calling a whore a whore is not name calling. You throw out the name "cheap-labor Conservative" as a label. I throw out "union whore liberal". Of course you're showing great hypocracy (yet again), after calling me a you are a homophobe & a racist & a union hater.


3.
Still not over CFPRC I see. I don't need Grumpy, or anyone else to have my back to handle you. Falsely making derogatory accusations like those above names is just as much of grounds for banning as well. Don't try to polish your halo when your horns keep knocking it off your head chief.


Now go back to #1 and see if you can get your own thread back on topic. :thumbs

ok,I'll use your logic.calling a racist a racist isn't name calling. how's that? don't try to rehash old threads that have been closed. that can get you banned,too. you want to try to drag old battles from over there at the "other" place to here & everyone knows it.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by TxAg

So far I have yet to see it in your respones.


Source?
There are exceptions to the rule. Huge unions like the AFL-CIO have not been a help to the country for years. Your specific union might be useful to you personally, but that doesn't mean it's useful and good for this country.
it's common knowledge. just because you aren't aware really doesn't surprise me. ask Warren Buffet AKA Mr. Capitalist. he just bought BNSF.

Considering the author is horribly biased, that's not saying much. It's simple supply and demand. By having a minimum wage you're adjusting supply and demand out of it's normal position.
Here's a question for you, why should we have a minimum wage?

why? because the benefits outweigh the concerns of you people. more "forced cheap labor" ideology from your side & proof of the author's premise.

Bit, more like kicked. Then couple that with piss poor border security and you've got a recipe for disaster.

again, we agree. illegals have done a lot to flatten & depress wages here. Reagan's amnesty anyone? Bush's "doing the jobs we won't do" anyone? more proof of the "cheap labor" argument by your idols.

The number of abortions due to necessary medical conditions to save the mother's life is vastly smaller than those who use it for birth control.

Reasons Why Women Have Induced Abortions: Evidence from 27 Countries
* 25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
* 21.3% Cannot afford a baby
* 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
* 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
* 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
* 7.9% Want no (more) children
* 3.3% Risk to fetal health
* 2.8% Risk to maternal health
* 2.1% Other

it's a woman's body. it's her decision.

Again, source? And again, there are exceptions to the rule.

again, it's common knowledge. again, you fail in your "all unions are company killers" claim.

So are you making the assertion I'm a fascist? it's a simple yes or no answer.
certainly not,but you might want to take a look at the definition, though. putting corporations in control of our country seems to be where we are at right now & conservatives seem to have no problem with that.
Beck has made stupid remarks as has Rush. But please show me where they can clearly be defined at racists. Sharption and Jackson have a looooooooooooooong track record.

"the Magic Negro?" [Limbaugh] "Obama is a racist & hates white people" [Beck.]
It was like pulling teeth but I finally got something.

All of that said, so far it has yet to be proven I'm am a "cheap-labor Conservative". And you've taken much longer than 3 minutes.

I have beer to fetch.

[Peter Pan]

Unions are so great, ask GM and Chrysler

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by TxAg

Well if it's common knowledge modern unions are so wonderful, helpful and needed then I'm sure you can post up some type of stats showing this.
"modern unions" have evolved form the days of goons & violent force, but you people refuse to admit this. "modern unions" are involved in things like safety/working conditions & production in concert with the companies for everyone's benefit. "modern unions" actually work with "modern companies" that realize that "modern unions" aren't stupid enough to put such a strangle hold on their employer that everyone loses. I am mostly familiar with my company/union & my industry, but I do know that unions & their direct influence on government helped bring about the standard of living we as Middle Class Americans enjoy today. a standard of living that has steadily declined since Reagan/PATCO.

I see you avoided directly answering the question. Let's try again. Why should there be a minimum wage? (if you say the benefits outweigh the concerns, show me the pros-cons then).

and you dodged my question. if we can cap the minimum, then why not the maximum?

Regan was 100% wrong for amnesty. I lambasted Bush every chance I got for his lack of border enforcement. Obama isn't doing any better. Neither did Clinton. Nor the Congresses during any of their terms, that I'm aware. FYI, I don't have any idols so that little jab just looks stupid.

actually Obama may be doing better. more illegals are being deported under him. Google it. he has put the employers of illegals on notice, although we'll have to see what happens there. that's the way to solve the problem IMHO. [put the people that hire them in jail.]
100% incorrect when it comes to abortion.


You have yet to prove me wrong. As I said, if it's such common knowledge, it should be easy to find some source to show how wonderful modern unions are to this country.

again, you are trying to disregard what I said. I don't need a "source." I live it day in & day out. I know my industry. I have to.Incorrect. Your bias is showing. Conservatives, generally speaking, believe in a free market (with some rules and regulations). Conservatives want to give the power to the people to make choices and have personal responsibility. Not to have government control and invade our lives.

Using the moveon.org, dailykos garbage of screaming "fascist" even when it doesn't apply.
FYI, Websters defines fascist as the following:
Fascist - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

Got some bad news for ya chief, that describes Obama, Pelosi and Reed very well.

that's not "bad news." that's simply a very good description of what a SCOTUS that rules corporations are people & a corporate lobby that spends 1 &1/2 million dollars a week in Washington are doing to this nation & our economy.
Those two quotes all you have? Seriously? And nothing for Malkin I see.

Malkin is an idiot....how's that?

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Peter Pan

Unions are so great, ask GM and Chrysler

I did. they said "we ****ed up when we negotiated contracts we couldn't live up to." they also said "damn, we should have been listening when the American public said "we want a better, more economical automobile."

[Z06PDQ]

railroads have long been recognized as excellent economic indicators. despite the recession, they are doing well. we have recalled all furloughed employees in my area & are currently shorthanded. I'm quite sure Faux Nuz won't tell you that, though: Warren Buffett sees strong rail system as key to U.S. growth - USATODAY.com bear in mind that this is a strong union industry & will always be.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by TxAg

I asked this:
"Well if it's common knowledge modern unions are so wonderful, helpful and needed then I'm sure you can post up some type of stats showing this."

That quote does not prove this.

"wonderful?" dunno about that, but my "modern union" helps keep me at the level of compensation & benefits that my predecessors from the 1930's/40's fought so hard to implement after decades of near absolute monarch rule that totally ruined our economy & caused the Republican Great Depression.but, that's only one of the countless benefits of union representation. I don't know what you do for a living, but tell me this. what recourse do you have if you walk in the door one day & you have a new boss & after he meets you he says "I don't like you, you stupid looking POS. you're fired. my new son in law is replacing you." let me answer for you, if I may. [TxAg] well, I would by God, sack up & find me an employer that appreciated my "skill set" [TxAg] good luck.pal. if you belong to a union there are legal arbitration hearings that have to be conducted. you will have excellent legal representation provided for you. you have obviously bought into the lie that unions are "evil &socialist & anti American." nothing could be further from the truth. unions brought us things like the weekend. 40 hour weeks. overtime, etc. you people would have us as your serfs & peons if you could. ain't gonna happen.

[Iron Chef]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

what recourse do you have if you walk in the door one day & you have a new boss & after he meets you he says "I don't like you, you stupid looking POS. you're fired. my new son in law is replacing you." let me answer for you, if I may. [TxAg] well, I would by God, sack up & find me an employer that appreciated my "skill set" [TxAg] good luck.pal.

Why "good luck pal"? If I have a skill set that's worth a crap (which I do), I won't (and have never) had a problem finding new employment. If all someone can do is load boxes on a truck or screw lug nuts on a car...well...all I can say is you might have a problem. But that's not my fault, and I shouldn't have to compensate for your lack of skills in the form of higher prices that Union goods and services fetch.

I read a very long article in Time Magazine (no, I don't remember the date but it was about a year ago) where a Union forklift driver for GM was whining because he couldn't keep up his vacation house and boat. Seems when they cut his overtime, his near $100,000 per year forklift driving job wasn't enough to get him out of the hole he dug for himself. But of course, "GM was being unfair."

I don't think paying forklift drivers $100,000 per year is what I'd call "fair market value for goods and services."

In addition, that very scenario that you described happened to me about 10 years ago (when labor laws weren't quite as tight). After a wrongful termination lawsuit was settled and a check for around $20,000 (plus fees) was handed to me, the guy went out of business less than a year later. It didn't cost me a dime, I lost 3 days of work, and the funny part is, the son came looking for a job at the company I was at!

Karma's a b!tch...and no...he wasn't hired.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Iron Chef

Why "good luck pal"? If I have a skill set that's worth a crap (which I do), I won't (and have never) had a problem finding new employment. If all someone can do is load boxes on a truck or screw lug nuts on a car...well...all I can say is you might have a problem. But that's not my fault, and I shouldn't have to compensate for your lack of skills in the form of higher prices that Union goods and services fetch.

I read a very long article in Time Magazine (no, I don't remember the date but it was about a year ago) where a Union forklift driver for GM was whining because he couldn't keep up his vacation house and boat. Seems when they cut his overtime, his near $100,000 per year forklift driving job wasn't enough to get him out of the hole he dug for himself. But of course, "GM was being unfair."

I don't think paying forklift drivers $100,000 per year is what I'd call "fair market value for goods and services."

In addition, that very scenario that you described happened to me about 10 years ago (when labor laws weren't quite as tight). After a wrongful termination lawsuit was settled and a check for around $20,000 (plus fees) was handed to me, the guy went out of business less than a year later. It didn't cost me a dime, I lost 3 days of work, and the funny part is, the son came looking for a job at the company I was at!

Karma's a b!tch...and no...he wasn't hired.

no way I'm taking up for a $100k/yr. forklift driver. but, that is more the exception & not the rule. most union employee compensation has been way overblown by the Right. I'll bet that 100k figure included his total benefits compensation.it usually does in these kinds of stories.they probably failed to mention he worked 100 hrs/wk, too. it's good that you got compensated for your issue, but sometimes people don't. they have no recourse but to find another job even if they were unfairly terminated. I sure wouldn't want to be looking in today's market.I've heard it's tough out there,despite your skill set. [to clarify the "good luck,pal" comment] there is a false impression that a union will keep you from getting fired if you are a bad employee. it's not true. there is a certain amount of protection provide by the union, but if you don't do your job you will be fired. I see it all the time.

[Iron Chef]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

no way I'm taking up for a $100k/yr. forklift driver. but, that is more the exception & not the rule. most union employee compensation has been way overblown by the Right. I'll bet that 100k figure included his total benefits compensation.it usually does in these kinds of stories.they probably failed to mention he worked 100 hrs/wk, too. it's good that you got compensated for your issue, but sometimes people don't. they have no recourse but to find another job even if they were unfairly terminated. I sure wouldn't want to be looking in today's market.I've heard it's tough out there,despite your skill set. [to clarify the "good luck,pal" comment] there is a false impression that a union will keep you from getting fired if you are a bad employee. it's not true. there is a certain amount of protection provide by the union, but if you don't do your job you will be fired. I see it all the time.

I dunno...Time is generally considered one of the more left-leaning publications. Actually from what I remember they did say that he worked tons of overtime. But the article also made a point of mentioning that he was near the $100K mark without O/T. And lets face it...it really doesn't matter how much O/T he was or wasn't working. I'm sure you can agree that that kind of money paid to someone with minimal skills is outrageous. And then he has the friggin' nerve to call GM unfair because of the hole he dug himself? I don't think so! I've toured enough auto plants to know that the people who work on the assembly line aren't the "skilled craftsmen" that they like to portray themselves as. Parts come down as an assembly and are set in place with the help of robotic assistance. The line worker bolts in the assembly and the car keeps moving. These are jobs that could easily be handled by high school graduates for a fraction of the cost. Fact is, Unions just don't get the concept of fair market value for goods and services.

And if you think that Union members get fired for not doing their jobs, you oughtta walk down the F-16 assembly line at Lockheed in Ft. Worth. Some of the most outright lazy people...men and women...that I've ever watched. It's possible that their local handles things differently, but it's really disgraceful. I'm be willing to bet that getting rid of dead weight doesn't happen nearly as often or as quickly as it should. Then again...the same could be said for non-Union jobs as well.

The old Boeing plant in Wichita, Kansas was recently bought out by Spirit Aviation. They tried for 6 months to negotiate with the Union, but the Union's demands were outrageous. Finally on a Friday afternoon, every employee in the plant was terminated. On Monday, letters were received by those who would be kept on. They broke the Union and in the last year, productivity at the plant went up almost 30%. And I know members of management AND former Union members who are still there. They both say it's a much better and less adversarial place to work.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Iron Chef

I dunno...Time is generally considered one of the more left-leaning publications. Actually from what I remember they did say that he worked tons of overtime. But the article also made a point of mentioning that he was near the $100K mark without O/T. And lets face it...it really doesn't matter how much O/T he was or wasn't working. I'm sure you can agree that that kind of money paid to someone with minimal skills is outrageous. And then he has the friggin' nerve to call GM unfair because of the hole he dug himself? I don't think so! I've toured enough auto plants to know that the people who work on the assembly line aren't the "skilled craftsmen" that they like to portray themselves as. Parts come down as an assembly and are set in place with the help of robotic assistance. The line worker bolts in the assembly and the car keeps moving. These are jobs that could easily be handled by high school graduates for a fraction of the cost. Fact is, Unions just don't get the concept of fair market value for goods and services.

And if you think that Union members get fired for not doing their jobs, you oughtta walk down the F-16 assembly line at Lockheed in Ft. Worth. Some of the most outright lazy people...men and women...that I've ever watched. It's possible that their local handles things differently, but it's really disgraceful. I'm be willing to bet that getting rid of dead weight doesn't happen nearly as often or as quickly as it should. Then again...the same could be said for non-Union jobs as well.

The old Boeing plant in Wichita, Kansas was recently bought out by Spirit Aviation. They tried for 6 months to negotiate with the Union, but the Union's demands were outrageous. Finally on a Friday afternoon, every employee in the plant was terminated. On Monday, letters were received by those who would be kept on. They broke the Union and in the last year, productivity at the plant went up almost 30%. And I know members of management AND former Union members who are still there. They both say it's a much better and less adversarial place to work.

I would have to know exactly what his job as a lift driver entailed to be fair. I used to be a foreman at a wood products company & one day the fork lift driver didn't show up, so I had to cover his job. I got the crap scared outa me loading lumber on trucks & in the warehouse. the forklift was a large one, but it felt like it was going to tip over at any minute. I had to negotiate around power lines & other workers. I drank a lot that night when I got home. sometimes it's not what you "know" but what you "do" that's important. I used to work at Lockheed when it was called General Dynamics. [F111 program/ Viet Nam era] I know exactly what you are talking about, but the lower level management are just as guilty as the employees in this craziness. they told us in no certain terms "when you have your job for the day done, go hide or look busy." each job was allotted a certain amount of time/man hours & they didn't care what you did as long as you kept up with the rest of the line. I would bet the GM assembly line is very similar in that regard. any union that would kill the company & themselves just to make a stand is a union that needs to go out of business.

[Y2Kvert4me]

The very premise of a union is "us vs them" (workers vs management).

Inviting that direct conflict is, and always will be, counterproductive to any company's success. Why anyone would wish to work for a company and then support an effort that effectively drags the company down is a mystery to me. It's nothing more than selfishness and any incentive to produce is removed.

I will NEVER work for a union. I prefer to be rewarded for my individual achievements, rather than see everyone rewarded for no achievements at all.

[Z06PDQ]

Originally Posted by Y2Kvert4me

The very premise of a union is "us vs them" (workers vs management).

Inviting that direct conflict is, and always will be, counterproductive to any company's success. Why anyone would wish to work for a company and then support an effort that effectively drags the company down is a mystery to me. It's nothing more than selfishness and any incentive to produce is removed.

I will NEVER work for a union. I prefer to be rewarded for my individual achievements, rather than see everyone rewarded for no achievements at all.

you have to remember why some unions came about in the first place. terms like "robber barons, a Chinaman's chance, I've been railroaded" etc. all came from the industry I work in. over 3,000 Chinese & Irish died in one year building the railroad.the Golden Spike ceremony that joined the first two railroads had to be canceled because the tie cutters kidnapped the president of the railroad & held him until they got paid. they hadn't been paid in three months. sure, things have changed since then due to labor laws, but I have little doubt that if they were allowed to, the railroad's would regress back to similar conditions. the "us vs. them" analogy doesn't apply to today's modern unions & companies. modern,progressive companies have learned to work in concert with the unions to get the job done. for example, my carrier wanted to save fuel. instead of saying "practice fuel conservation or we'll fire you" they started a Fuel Masters program. you are issued a credit card & you share in the fuel savings. that's my beer card. the carrier wanted to improve safety, so instead of saying "work safe or you will be fired" they started the Total Safety Culture Program where employees evaluate each other's working habits in regard to safety. these programs are both enormous successes. the reason is the carrier went to the union & asked "hey, will you help us with this?" I understand that belonging to a union should be an individual decision. I don't know about other industries, but I can't imagine working for the railroad without a union. nearly everyone I know has been fired at least once & reinstated for safety rules violations. it just comes with the territory. when the odds of you getting fired are that high, legal representation is a valued thing.

[Y2Kvert4me]

Originally Posted by Z06PDQ

the "us vs. them" analogy doesn't apply to today's modern unions & companies.

I've seen it happen so many times around here it's not even funny. The company I've worked for (close to 25 yrs) used to be one small division of a much larger company. Back when we were under the same roof, I worked both divisions.

One day some disgruntled employee started talking to a Union, and effectively led them in the door. The company owner immediately sold off that division of the business and walked away. I was originally "expected" to remain with the sold (unionized) part. I went and talked to the owner and expressed interest in moving with him and his smaller division. He said fine, and I went with. Our little division has grown, and is a stable, healthy company, with a very friendly and casual working atmosphere.
The union shop? I think ownership has now traded hands there 4 or 5 times, and it's generally become a real sh!thole of a place to work for. Almost all the employees I worked with there got out within a year or two after the union came in and working conditions deteriorated.

Unrelated story, a guy I worked with left our company for a "better job offer", which was a union assembly job. At our shop, he was an ok worker, not particularly fast, just coasted along. He then quit that Union job a week later, because his slow pace was still 4 times the output of the senior employees there, and they simply wouldn't allow him to even put in an honest day's work. He quit from sheer boredom, as he could get done in 2 hours what the others took all day to do. Tell me how that benefits the company?

Another friend works for a Union company that's a major supplier to the Big 3. Their union was very unwilling to make ANY concessions when the auto industry was on it's way to rock bottom. Much like the UAW did until GM was actually in bankruptcy. They seem to think having no job at all is better than making small sacrifices. Him being amongst the top of the seniority ladder luckily remained employed, but he was biting his nails for quite a long time, as everyone around him was being let go. He loves his job, but he hates the Union, and always has.

The worst yet, is when you have a large company that houses several different union branches. Under one roof you may find union pipefitters, union electricians, union millwrights, union welders, etc, etc. As ridiculous as it may seem, you may really need 3-4 union guys present just to replace a single light bulb. I've seen that happen first hand too, all I could do was shake my head and laugh at how truly pathetic it was.

I don't know about other industries, but I can't imagine working for the railroad without a union.

Now there's 4 real examples of how I've seen unions function in other industries. They are by and large considered a cancer here in the midwest, which is primarily the metals industry, tool & die, suppliers to auto and aircraft and papermaking industries, and other heavy equipment manufacturing.

If you are happy with your union and feel they are helping make the company better overall, that IS great and I am happy for you.

But it's quite far from an accurate portrayal of how unions function in other fields. Like I said before, I've seen enough to know I will never be interested in working for one.