The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Yes, there are people who just see the low number and based on that go to the dealership. That's exactly what they want. They want to get people into the door so that they can use their "game". For me, commissioned sales people are somewhere near the bottom of professions.. The absolutely bottom however are ambulance chasing lawyers.. Commissioned sales people come right after that. I'm not talking about ALL sales people. I'm talking about those who try to fool people and sell them something they don't need OR sell them something at a way too high priced, making them believe that they got a deal. Yes, there are honest sales people out there but many are absolute scum. I personally dealt with a few.

You appear to know a lot less about the new car dealership business than you think.
For starters, the sales people have nothing to do with the marketing.
And most are working for "flats" where they get a small fixed number (flat rate) for each sale. So it doesn't matter to them what you pay for the car/truck because they are not working off a percentage of the sale, they just want to move units.
Most of these sales people don't really make much money and have been relegated to clerk status throughout most of the industry. Sure some are not the best at customer relations but I would not call them scum.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Of course, marketing is there to make a product appealing. Most of advertising can't make QUANTIFYABLE claims about a product that are not true. For example, a supplement that I used to take (Algal DHA) used to claim that it improves memory. However, it turns out that there was nothing that backs it up. They were sued and the product us now off the market. They lied and they lost in court. It's like advertising a fake price.. If you have an ad on TV with no disclaimer saying that a particular product is $39.99 but the reality is that the product is $59.99 and was never $39.99.. There is a problem. Sure, some claims can't be quantified like "the product makes you look cool" or "chicks will love if you drive that car".. But lying about specs or price can get you sued. Sure, many adds have a fast talking voice reading all the disclaimers at the end of the ad to prevent them from getting sued.

There you have it.
No laws have been broken and no one has been misled into buying anything. Unless, as you've said, they have less than half a brain so maybe they should not be buying or will wise up soon enough.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Run a search on any vehicle you choose on Autotrader. Sort by price, low to high. Go to the dealer and try to buy the car for the price that you find. Good Luck.

Autotrader is nothing but a source to tell you who has what for sale. At that point in your search it would be wise to go to the dealership website and further search a particular vehicle.

Once you find that the vehicle is available then you can begin your sale negotiations, either online or through phone conversation, or both. If you can secure a deal in writing that you are comfortable with, then you probably have bought a car. Otherwise it may pay your to visit the dealership to negotiate and finalize your deal.

It is not rocket science.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

There you have it.
No laws have been broken and no one has been misled into buying anything. Unless, as you've said, they have less than half a brain so maybe they should not be buying or will wise up soon enough.

I'm not claiming that laws were violated. I'm saying that just like we standardize EPA testing, the way that cars are advertised should be standardized to avoid consumers being misled. Just like I would fully support EPA numbers to be closer to actual consumption of most driver, I would like advertised prices of cars closer to the actual price that most pay.
I don't think that it would be consistent to
a) ask for EPA range numbers to be more accurate
but
b) don't want advertised prices to be more accurate

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Autotrader is nothing but a source to tell you who has what for sale. At that point in your search it would be wise to go to the dealership website and further search a particular vehicle.

Once you find that the vehicle is available then you can begin your sale negotiations, either online or through phone conversation, or both. If you can secure a deal in writing that you are comfortable with, then you probably have bought a car. Otherwise it may pay your to visit the dealership to negotiate and finalize your deal.

It is not rocket science.

It doesn't matter what site you use, you will have the same fake prices on all sites used for car sales. Cars.com, Autotrader.com, cargurus.com etc.

Also, what is your thought of dealers advertising low priced cars that sold weeks ago and when you get to the dealership, they tell you that the car was sold but they have other, higher priced ones available. Is this acceptable to you?

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

There you have it.
No laws have been broken and no one has been misled into buying anything. Unless, as you've said, they have less than half a brain so maybe they should not be buying or will wise up soon enough.

One more thing.. Let's say that there was no EPA testing at all and car manufacturers could make up their own numbers. Would it be ok for Tesla or any other company to advertise that the car can go 500 miles even though it can only go 250 miles in real life conditions. What if they have a VERY small printed disclaimer on the bottom of the page that says. *) range as measured going 40 mph on a flat surface with 40 mph tail wind

Do you think that this would mislead customers?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I'm not claiming that laws were violated. I'm saying that just like we standardize EPA testing, the way that cars are advertised should be standardized to avoid consumers being misled. Just like I would fully support EPA numbers to be closer to actual consumption of most driver, I would like advertised prices of cars closer to the actual price that most pay.
I don't think that it would be consistent to
a) ask for EPA range numbers to be more accurate
but
b) don't want advertised prices to be more accurate

The advertised prices are accurate unless you "have less than half a brain".
It's all meaningless because the price is negotiable.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

It doesn't matter what site you use, you will have the same fake prices on all sites used for car sales. Cars.com, Autotrader.com, cargurus.com etc.

I said go to the dealership website once one of those sites tell you that the dealer has a car you are interested in. Once there find the window sticker and begin your negotiations there.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Also, what is your thought of dealers advertising low priced cars that sold weeks ago and when you get to the dealership, they tell you that the car was sold but they have other, higher priced ones available. Is this acceptable to you?

I do not believe that happens very often. If it was systematic the dealership would be called out and penalized.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

The advertised prices are accurate unless you "have less than half a brain".
It's all meaningless because the price is negotiable.

It is negotiable NOW because of lack of demand, especially higher priced models. Dealers HAVE to drop their pants as interest rates are high and consumers now can afford a lot less car then with low rates..

BTW, what you think of this ad? Honest or Misleading? (maximize image)
Look at the range numbers and disclaimer..

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

One more thing.. Let's say that there was no EPA testing at all and car manufacturers could make up their own numbers. Would it be ok for Tesla or any other company to advertise that the car can go 500 miles even though it can only go 250 miles in real life conditions. What if they have a VERY small printed disclaimer on the bottom of the page that says. *) range as measured going 40 mph on a flat surface with 40 mph tail wind

Do you think that this would mislead customers?

That would be intentionally providing false information. But that is not what the dealership is doing regarding the pricing.

I don't care about the EPA testing bullchit. I have NEVER bought a vehicle based on those numbers, that BTW we all know are not accurate.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

That would be intentionally providing false information. But that is not what the dealership is doing regarding the pricing.

I don't care about the EPA testing bullchit. I have NEVER bought a vehicle based on those numbers, that BTW we all know are not accurate.

That's exactly what they are doing.. Look at the ad I made up.. It has the disclaimer that efficiency was measured at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, JUST LIKE dealers adding in small print that the price is after all possible discounts (that most can't get). Just like nobody drives 1000+ miles at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, virtually nobody is able to get all the discounts.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

That would be intentionally providing false information. But that is not what the dealership is doing regarding the pricing.

I don't care about the EPA testing bullchit. I have NEVER bought a vehicle based on those numbers, that BTW we all know are not accurate.

What if they documented the efficiency? Look at the disclaimer with the asterisk on the bottom right.. Efficiency measure at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind.
So, technically it's not a lie if they did that test and it turned out with that range. They printed the disclaimer on the bottom right of the page. What's wrong with that?

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

It is negotiable NOW because of lack of demand, especially higher priced models. Dealers HAVE to drop their pants as interest rates are high and consumers now can afford a lot less car then with low rates..

Pricing is ALWAYS negotiable. Of course market conditions affect the negotiations.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

BTW, what you think of this ad? Honest or Misleading? (maximize image)
Look at the range numbers and disclaimer..

I'm not sure what you are asking. And I can not click the details link from your pic/screenshot.
On the range, I do not believe tany EV has a 1300 mile range. But I am not an EV buyer so I have not done any research, so I don't care.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

That's exactly what they are doing.. Look at the ad I made up.. It has the disclaimer that efficiency was measured at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, JUST LIKE dealers adding in small print that the price is after all possible discounts (that most can't get). Just like nobody drives 1000+ miles at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, virtually nobody is able to get all the discounts.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

What if they documented the efficiency? Look at the disclaimer with the asterisk on the bottom right.. Efficiency measure at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind.
So, technically it's not a lie if they did that test and it turned out with that range. They printed the disclaimer on the bottom right of the page. What's wrong with that?

You are waaaaay out into the weeds man. No car buyers GAF about all this.

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

That's exactly what they are doing.. Look at the ad I made up.. It has the disclaimer that efficiency was measured at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, JUST LIKE dealers adding in small print that the price is after all possible discounts (that most can't get). Just like nobody drives 1000+ miles at 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, virtually nobody is able to get all the discounts.

Aah...A little absurdism for your monday morning.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

You are waaaaay out into the weeds man. No car buyers GAF about all this.

All that I'm trying to say is that advertising this way (even though LEGAL) is misleading. I added the disclaimer in a font that is close to the background color but still readable. Most people will just look at the 1326 mile range and not see the disclaimer. So, they will be misled even though the claim may be true considering the disclaimer. At 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, you may be able to go very far in any car. Just add a sail and you won't use any battery or gas

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by LATB

Aah...A little absurdism for your monday morning.

I added the legal disclaimer how the range was achieved. Obviously, nobody will be able to replicate that as nobody will be able to go 1300 miles on flat surface with 80 mph tail wind but because there is a disclaimer, it makes it LEGAL.. Obviously, it doesn't make it right. The ad I made up is clearly misleading on range. I should have added.. going downhill at 15% grade as well

[LATB]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

All that I'm trying to say is that advertising this way (even though LEGAL) is misleading. I added the disclaimer in a font that is close to the background color but still readable. Most people will just look at the 1326 mile range and not see the disclaimer. So, they will be misled even though the claim may be true considering the disclaimer. At 30 mph with 80 mph tail wind, you may be able to go very far in any car. Just add a sail and you won't use any battery or gas

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

I added the legal disclaimer how the range was achieved. Obviously, nobody will be able to replicate that as nobody will be able to go 1300 miles on flat surface with 80 mph tail wind but because there is a disclaimer, it makes it LEGAL.. Obviously, it doesn't make it right. The ad I made up is clearly misleading on range. I should have added.. going downhill at 15% grade as well

Any EV car buyer who buys that car thinking that they can get a 1300 mile range deserves to be disappointed.

I remember you posting that EV buyers are mostly high earners and conservative smart thinkers. Maybe not.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Yes, there are people who just see the low number and based on that go to the dealership. That's exactly what they want. They want to get people into the door so that they can use their "game". For me, commissioned sales people are somewhere near the bottom of professions.. The absolutely bottom however are ambulance chasing lawyers.. Commissioned sales people come right after that. I'm not talking about ALL sales people. I'm talking about those who try to fool people and sell them something they don't need OR sell them something at a way too high priced, making them believe that they got a deal. Yes, there are honest sales people out there but many are absolute scum. I personally dealt with a few.

So f**king what?

You want to pass laws and regulate the entire internet because people are too stupid to read. Where does your protection of idiots end? You going to regulate facebook marketplace? You going to regulate every advertisement in every industry... or is it only car buyers that you think are too stupid to read?

Elon calls his piece of shit a "truck". Imagine how many idiots are misled by that one.

On the website it shows the below. It can go 340 miles while towing 11,000lbs and still has a 2.6s 0-60. Amazing.

Funny, it never says that you can pick 1 at a time (except 340 mile range which of course isn't happening at all). Imagine that, listing a bunch of things that are impossible to happen at the same time. Hmmm. Wait a minute. What are those little (*) and (+) symbols by those numbers? MISLEADINGGGGGG!!!!!!!

Let me guess... that's different.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Run a search on any vehicle you choose on Autotrader. Sort by price, low to high. Go to the dealer and try to buy the car for the price that you find. Good Luck.

Just admit you can't show us even one example of what you keep ranting about. You made the claim, prove it or STFU.