The Everything Tesla/EV Argument Thread

[GrandSportC3]

BTW, I found the Carfax report (but the link is no longer active) of the Honda Odyssey that was sold with 95k miles on the odometer..
The link to the report is no longer active but I do have the VIN from back then.
It was only 9 years ago.. in 2015.

VIN 5FNRL38675B018478

You probably have carfax access and you can check the odometer history on that car. I was not lying.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

As for odometer rollback, if you have many entries showing mileage going up , there is little chance that all of those entries were done in error.
Yes, errors do happen if someone mistypes something but it would look like this..

2019 20000 miles
2020 21000 miles
2021 23000 miles
2022 10000 miles
2023 26000 miles..

Obviously, the 2022 mileage may have been typed in incorrectly but if you have a car that had the mileage go up consistently over many years and then the car is sold with 100k miles less on the odometer, this is fraud.

Yes. It's safe to say that obvious fraud is obvious.

The better thing to do is to look at previous title mileages which are available at the DMV/BMV of any state. Unlike Carfax, those are correct.

Carfax is only valuable if someone religiously used reporting businesses for maintenance... and was then stupid enough to change an odometer after the fact.

A 75k mile car with a worn out brake pedal is a hell of a lot better indicator of fraud than Carfax.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

A 75k mile car with a worn out brake pedal is a hell of a lot better indicator of fraud than Carfax.

I can agree on that one. It's always good to do due diligence.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You probably have carfax access and you can check the odometer history on that car. I was not lying.

I'd say that you would be more mistaken on both cause and intent of the dealer than flat out lying.

The entire point being that dealers aren't the ones rolling mileage. It's quite simply not worth it to do so, even for the shadiest scumbag out there.

A mileage rollback done exactly as you claim wouldn't have even made it beyond the title office. There's no way that sale would have ever gone through the paperwork processing, much less gone through undetected. This was actually titled at a higher mileage and then lowered again which would have clearly flagged a "Not Actual" on the title, which is exactly what actually happened. This wasn't a Carfax detected mileage change using their super sleuthing skills.

Funny story. You might be happy to know that the dealer in this case is almost certainly the 1 that got ripped off. My bet, they didn't process the title before it hit the lot. If they had, it would have been flagged already. The ONLY possibility of the dealer being in the wrong is if it actually did have a "Not Actual" flag which was not disclosed properly. And yes, there are very specific requirements around that as well.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You probably have carfax access ...

I don't use Carfax. Because it's garbage.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

I'd say that you would be more mistaken on both cause and intent of the dealer than flat out lying.

The entire point being that dealers aren't the ones rolling mileage. It's quite simply not worth it to do so, even for the shadiest scumbag out there.

A mileage rollback done exactly as you claim wouldn't have even made it beyond the title office. There's no way that sale would have ever gone through the paperwork processing, much less gone through undetected. This was actually titled at a higher mileage and then lowered again which would have clearly flagged a "Not Actual" on the title, which is exactly what actually happened. This wasn't a Carfax detected mileage change using their super sleuthing skills.

Funny story. You might be happy to know that the dealer in this case is almost certainly the 1 that got ripped off. My bet, they didn't process the title before it hit the lot. If they had, it would have been flagged already. The ONLY possibility of the dealer being in the wrong is if it actually did have a "Not Actual" flag which was not disclosed properly. And yes, there are very specific requirements around that as well.

Well, I ran the carfax in 2015. Carfax didn't flag it at the time as the mileage was consistent. However, the last reported reading was I believe 200k or 300k miles or something like that and the car on the lot had a lot lower mileage, at least 100k miles lower. As the LAST reading before the car was listed for sale was much higher, it's likely that the dealer selling the car rolled it back. Can it be proven? Nope. What if the guy who sold it to the dealer rolled it back?? I don't think it's likely because most regular people have no idea how to roll back the odometer, so there is a good chance that the dealer did it.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

...any reported accidents will also be on the carfax.

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Maybe not ALL cases but most..

Well, that changed quickly.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by Steve_R

Well, that changed quickly.

It doesn't matter. I'm ok if it's only 75% accurate.. Better that than having nothing to go on.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Well, I ran the carfax in 2015. Carfax didn't flag it at the time as the mileage was consistent. However, the last reported reading was I believe 200k or 300k miles or something like that and the car on the lot had a lot lower mileage, at least 100k miles lower. As the LAST reading before the car was listed for sale was much higher, it's likely that the dealer selling the car rolled it back. Can it be proven? Nope. What if the guy who sold it to the dealer rolled it back?? I don't think it's likely because most regular people have no idea how to roll back the odometer, so there is a good chance that the dealer did it.

The car was titled with 165k miles on it.

It was then titled again with a "non actual" exempt title and has been "N/A Exempt" ever since.

The point that you are missing is that there is no way that anybody could have ever titled the car with 95k miles at the point in time that you are claiming. It simply could not happen. Even if you signed off on it and bought it, it could have never actually been titled. I find it very hard (impossible) to believe that any dealer would have been stupid enough to try to bring a title to an office that said 95k when a previous title showed 165k. That doesn't make sense. Even if they did trick a customer, they could never actually transfer the title.

The ONLY scenario by which the shadiest of dealers could have possibly been trying to trick a customer by rolling back the odometer is if they rolled it back and subsequently changed the title applications and odometer disclosures to show N/A mileage. For this to happen, they would have to either flat out forge your signature (and notarize it), or somehow get you to sign an odometer disclosure that is required by law to have a gigantic bold font header that says "Not Actual Mileage". This signed and notarized Odometer Disclosure Statement is part of the paperwork that gets presented to the BMV/DMV for title transfer.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

The car was titled with 165k miles on it.

It was then titled again with a "non actual" exempt title and has been "N/A Exempt" ever since.

The point that you are missing is that there is no way that anybody could have ever titled the car with 95k miles at the point in time that you are claiming. It simply could not happen. Even if you signed off on it and bought it, it could have never actually been titled. I find it very hard (impossible) to believe that any dealer would have been stupid enough to try to bring a title to an office that said 95k when a previous title showed 165k. That doesn't make sense. Even if they did trick a customer, they could never actually transfer the title.

As I obviously didn't go through with the purchase. I may be wrong but usually, when you buy from a dealer, you actually don't really get the signed title. That only happens in a private sale. They do the title paperwork for you. All they need to do is to check the box that says "NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE" when filing the paperwork for the buyer. Just a thought. As I said, I didn't go through with it so I'm not sure what would have happened.

[jw38]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Used cars are a whole different thing. If a dealer accepts a trade, they will do their due diligence and inspect the car. I doubt that any dealer will take a seller by their word.
There are different expectations when you buy from a private individual than if you buy from a business. Some small scumbag dealers are changing mileage on cars to sell them more expensive. About 15 years ago, I was looking at used cars for the wife. I checked some cars at smaller dealers and the mileage on the car seems low. Turns out that when I ran the carfax, the dealer bought the car at the auction with 250k miles and when they listed it for sale, it was listed with 95k miles. They switched out the computer from a lower mile car of the same model.
Shady corner lot dealers are often not to be trusted. Mileage rollback is very common.
Expectations are quite different if you shop at a small car lot or from a private individual or a new car dealership. This still doesn't make it ok for used car lot dealers to roll back miles and hope that buyers don't run a carfax.

Not necessarily. Last Saturday my wife traded her 2021 Lincoln Aviator on a 2024 BMW X3 M40i. No one from the dealership looked at her Lincoln. All they asked for was the mileage and what condition it was in. She told them that it was perfect...it was...and they gave her a fantastic trade-in value.

Now, onto my EV tale. A friend of mine and his wife from Michigan spend winters in LA with their sons. He drives a Tesla Model X and he always takes the far south route when driving back to Michigan. He takes I-10 east to San Antonio and then he heads north to Michigan. This year, his wife flew home and he called and asked if I wanted to ride with him from LA to my home, which is about 35 miles north of San Antionio. I thought it would be a nice trip, so last week I flew to LA, spent a few days looking around (**** that place...the traffic SUCKS!), and then I met up with him to start the trip. EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, on the trip was based on where he could find a Tesla Supercharger to recharge the car. Holy shit, what a pain in the ass that is! We had no urgency to get back to San Antonio, but whenever I suggested a slight detour to do some sightseeing, the answer was always "That takes us out of the way of the charging station". **** that! We drove over 1200 miles and he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't deviate even a few miles from his pre-planned routes. Charging every 200 miles took about 25 minutes and it was surprising to see the same people, who were also heading east, at every charging station. Not only was the charging a PITA, but the ****ing road noise in the car is almost unbearable. Evidently, Tesla either doesn't install sound deadening material in the Model X, or they forgot it in this car. We basically had to yell to have a conversation. My fried said that his wife complains constantly about the noise. Also, his car has 84k miles on it and it's on its FIFTH set for front CV axle joints and its fourth set of tires. The first four sets of CV joints were covered under warranty. He paid $2k for the fifth set. Apparently there's a known design flaw in the older Model X vehicles (his is a 2019), and there's no fix for it.

The moral of the story: **** EVs, **** Tesla...and **** JOE BIDEN!

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by jw38

Not necessarily. Last Saturday my wife traded her 2021 Lincoln Aviator on a 2024 BMW X3 M40i. No one from the dealership looked at her Lincoln. All they asked for was the mileage and what condition it was in. She told them that it was perfect...it was...and they gave her a fantastic trade-in value.

Now, onto my EV tale. A friend of mine and his wife from Michigan spend winters in LA with their sons. He drives a Tesla Model X and he always takes the far south route when driving back to Michigan. He takes I-10 east to San Antonio and then he heads north to Michigan. This year, his wife flew home and he called and asked if I wanted to ride with him from LA to my home, which is about 35 miles north of San Antionio. I thought it would be a nice trip, so last week I flew to LA, spent a few days looking around (**** that place...the traffic SUCKS!), and then I met up with him to start the trip. EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, on the trip was based on where he could find a Tesla Supercharger to recharge the car. Holy shit, what a pain in the ass that is! We had no urgency to get back to San Antonio, but whenever I suggested a slight detour to do some sightseeing, the answer was always "That takes us out of the way of the charging station". **** that! We drove over 1200 miles and he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't deviate even a few miles from his pre-planned routes. Charging every 200 miles took about 25 minutes and it was surprising to see the same people, who were also heading east, at every charging station. Not only was the charging a PITA, but the ****ing road noise in the car is almost unbearable. Evidently, Tesla either doesn't install sound deadening material in the Model X, or they forgot it in this car. We basically had to yell to have a conversation. My fried said that his wife complains constantly about the noise. Also, his car has 84k miles on it and it's on its FIFTH set for front CV axle joints and its fourth set of tires. The first four sets of CV joints were covered under warranty. He paid $2k for the fifth set. Apparently there's a known design flaw in the older Model X vehicles (his is a 2019), and there's no fix for it.

The moral of the story: **** EVs, **** Tesla...and **** JOE BIDEN!

Every time I traded a car, someone looked at it. I'm pretty sure that they also ran some kind of car check/carfax on it.
As for the axle issue. It is a known issue on older Model X that was fixed with the 2022 refresh. As for road noise, I only got a ride in an older Model X many years ago, and I don't recall any noise. My 2022 Model X is very quiet, even at higher speed.. All you hear is the some wind noise.. No tire or motor noise. I usually travel on the fastest route, so, no issues with chargers.
I wonder if your friend had the factory tires. Going with certain tires can increase sound level. The factory tires are designed to be silent.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

As I obviously didn't go through with the purchase. I may be wrong but usually, when you buy from a dealer, you actually don't really get the signed title. That only happens in a private sale. They do the title paperwork for you. All they need to do is to check the box that says "NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE" when filing the paperwork for the buyer. Just a thought. As I said, I didn't go through with it so I'm not sure what would have happened.

You don't get handed the title at point of sale, but the dealer still has to process the title through the DMV/BMV. That's that whole "Doc fee" thing. The BMV would never process that title.

If the accusation really is that they would have forged an odometer disclosure, which includes a notarized signature, in order to sneak it through, I'd say they probably didn't last too long as a business. I can't imagine a dealer risking multiple felonies to get an extra $1500 on a minivan. But who knows.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

You don't get handed the title at point of sale, but the dealer still has to process the title through the DMV/BMV. That's that whole "Doc fee" thing. The BMV would never process that title.

If the accusation really is that they would have forged an odometer disclosure, which includes a notarized signature, in order to sneak it through, I'd say they probably didn't last too long as a business. I can't imagine a dealer risking multiple felonies to get an extra $1500 on a minivan. But who knows.

Again, what if the dealer just checks the "NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE BOX"?

They also give you a bunch of documents to sign. What if they just sneaked it in and hoped that the buyer would not notice it?

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

Again, what if the dealer just checks the "NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE BOX"?

Sure. And that page is signed by the customer and notarized as well as the title application which says it again.

1 Box has to be checked, either Actual or Not.

In addition to the original odometer tampering, you've now added multiple counts of forgery and fraud to the list. All of which are proven very easily since the customer has a copy of the odometer statement and title application from the time of sale.

You have to commit multiple felonies, all easily detectable, to do what you are claiming. Impossible? No... but it sure seems like a pretty bold strategy to try to make a few extra bucks on a minivan.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

They also give you a bunch of documents to sign. What if they just sneaked it in and hoped that the buyer would not notice it?

You have to sign the page. Actually, you have to sign 3 different pages that address this. First, it is on the Bill of Sale. Admittedly, it's not always obvious on that one, but it's there. More importantly, the Odometer Disclosure is an entire page dedicated to exactly this (the name is a pretty good hint), and it's also on the title application. "Not actual mileage" is in big ass bold print on every state's title application. All 3 of these are required by law.

Let's go back to the overarching theme of the argument. It is spelled out so simply that even someone that has absolutely no idea what they are talking about is able to figure it out very easily. It's not buried in fine print somewhere. If you manage to miss "Not Actual Mileage", not once, but 3 different times when you are buying a car, you're an absolute idiot.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

You have to sign the page. Actually, you have to sign 3 different pages that address this. First, it is on the Bill of Sale. Admittedly, it's not always obvious on that one, but it's there. More importantly, the Odometer Disclosure is an entire page dedicated to exactly this (the name is a pretty good hint), and it's also on the title application. "Not actual mileage" is in big ass bold print on every state's title application. All 3 of these are required by law.

Let's go back to the overarching theme of the argument. It is spelled out so simply that even someone that has absolutely no idea what they are talking about is able to figure it out very easily. It's not buried in fine print somewhere. If you manage to miss "Not Actual Mileage", not once, but 3 different times when you are buying a car, you're an absolute idiot.

You know how this goes.. Dealer gives you the document and shows you where to sign. Unfortunately, too many people don't read what they sign.
Does that make it right to screw them? Nope. Does it happen? Sure does.

[Steve_R]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You know how this goes.. Dealer gives you the document and shows you where to sign. Unfortunately, too many people don't read what they sign.
Does that make it right to screw them? Nope. Does it happen? Sure does.

For at least the tenth time, what new law or regulation would prevent that? The Odometer Disclosure form is mandated by the government for this very reason. If people choose not to read it that's on them. No additional law or form will change that.

I can't even figure out what you're arguing for or against any more as your argument keeps changing.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3

You know how this goes.. Dealer gives you the document and shows you where to sign. Unfortunately, too many people don't read what they sign.
Does that make it right to screw them? Nope. Does it happen? Sure does.

No, I don’t know how that goes.

I’ve never had a dealer try to stop me from reading anything and I’ve never done it myself.

Take some responsibility for your own shit. Your argument is on par with saying it’s the car’s fault for someone driving 100mph … because they didn’t know to look at the speedometer.

[GrandSportC3]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

No, I don’t know how that goes.

I’ve never had a dealer try to stop me from reading anything and I’ve never done it myself.

Take some responsibility for your own shit. Your argument is on par with saying it’s the car’s fault for someone driving 100mph … because they didn’t know to look at the speedometer.

Never said that anybody stops a customer from reading. That's usually not the reason why they don't read it. It's often to save time or lazyness. I personally read virtually every line of what I'm signing.