VBPRC Debate Club: Topic 2 - Welfare

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

How many people owned those things before they fell into poverty?

It's your argument. You tell me.

From what I can see living in multiple cities those living in the slums with their flat screens, cell phones, and 22" rims are not "new" poor, but rather those who have been there for quite a while.

Even so, let's assume for a second that they did own them. If they were actually impoverished to the point of bloodshed and starving without food stamps, why do they still have them?

I fell on some hard times not all that long ago when my job went away. The first thing I did was sell the shit I didn't need and cut every possible expense. Seems to me like multiple televisions would fairly easily fit into that category.

Look at the numbers posted. Almost 2/3 have satellite/cable programming. There is no possible way that you can spin this into something that someone NEEDS. 30% own MULTIPLE cars. There is no possible way you can spin multiple cars into a NEED.

Do you actually ever step foot in these poor areas and see with your own eyes what goes on or do you stay in the comfort of your million dollar island and make your assessments based on something some blogger said on the internet?

Originally Posted by Joecooool

How many of the home-owning poor are elderly?

You tell me.

What does that have to do with anything I said?


Just 1 thing to clarify. According to you, these people are so impoverished and so desperate that they will resort to a war to the extent that I "won't have enough ammo" but they won't sell their TV or their car if it would raise enough cash to put food on the table? Seems just a bit contradictory.

They aren't desperate for things they NEED. They are desperate for things they WANT. Unfortunately people can't seem to distinguish between the 2.


Are there genuinely impoverished people in America? Of course.

Is it even REMOTELY close to the number of people sitting on their asses getting a taxpayer check? Not even close.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Joecooool

How many people owned those things before they fell into poverty?

How many of the home-owning poor are elderly?

Fell into poverty? They got there through mistakes. Weather it was having kids they could not afford, buying to many things they could not afford or anyone of a myriad of reasons they got into poverty because they screwed up.

They are POOR. It's not MY problem to help them. It's their families, Friends and neighbors job if they deserve it. Otherwise they suffer the consequences of their actions.

[zz4vetteguy]

Shit, I was not expecting three pages to read in just the short time I was gone. I have my thoughts, but want to read everything first (cause I am a lazy mofo tonight and if someone else posts something I was going to sat I can just quote them and use the "I'm with stupid smiley"...LOL)

[zz4vetteguy]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

$800/month?

Maybe they could sell 1 of their televisions or cut their smart phone data plan.

Do you really think that 45 million people in this country would "go hungry" without food stamps??

We could take your logic a WHOLE lot further...I spent 7 years manageing a grocery store, so I dealt with people using food stamps and wic checks on a daily basis. Besides the Direct TV dishes and smart phones, how many of them had expensive, and expensively pimped out rides in front of their houses? If you need govt assistance to feed yourself or your family, then how the hell can you afford an Lexus, BWW, or Mercedes, or a 5K stereo system and 10K worth of tires and wheels on your Lincoln Navigator?

I used to have to bite my tongue every time I saw someone who needed a WIC check to buy a gallon of milk and formula for their kids, but then turned around pulled out a large wad of cash and bought cartons of cigarretts and/or cases of beer.

I do think there should be some sort of assistance for people who truely need it...I mean, it is not the kids' faults that some of them have deadbeat parents who would rather take handouts instead of working hard to provide for thier families, but there also needs to be a FAR better way to regulate it. Also, I am all for manditory drug testing. Someone brought up business owners, but that is really apples to oranges. Buiness owners do not have their hands out to the govt looking for free money to feed their kids while using their money to support their habbit.

[Olustee bus]

Mexico has no welfare. A society needs to look after the poor to some degree. The problem is determining how.

Poverty in Mexico: Economic Crises and 21st Century Welfare

[Stangkiller]

Originally Posted by zz4vetteguy

We could take your logic a WHOLE lot further...I spent 7 years manageing a grocery store, so I dealt with people using food stamps and wic checks on a daily basis. Besides the Direct TV dishes and smart phones, how many of them had expensive, and expensively pimped out rides in front of their houses? If you need govt assistance to feed yourself or your family, then how the hell can you afford an Lexus, BWW, or Mercedes, or a 5K stereo system and 10K worth of tires and wheels on your Lincoln Navigator?

I used to have to bite my tongue every time I saw someone who needed a WIC check to buy a gallon of milk and formula for their kids, but then turned around pulled out a large wad of cash and bought cartons of cigarretts and/or cases of beer.

I do think there should be some sort of assistance for people who truely need it...I mean, it is not the kids' faults that some of them have deadbeat parents who would rather take handouts instead of working hard to provide for thier families, but there also needs to be a FAR better way to regulate it. Also, I am all for manditory drug testing. Someone brought up business owners, but that is really apples to oranges. Buiness owners do not have their hands out to the govt looking for free money to feed their kids while using their money to support their habbit.

I strongly believe wic/food stamps should be redeemable at food banks not grocery stores, if public transportation is available, the recipient must use it to pick up the weeks worth of basic foods.

Also, included in the drug testing should be cigarettes and alcohol, as those are both luxuries,

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

I strongly believe wic/food stamps should be redeemable at food banks not grocery stores.

Been saying this for as long as I can remember. Problem solved. Those in need get food and it couldn't be any easier.

The problem with the plan is that no matter what is said, wealth distribution is the goal for most of those who support the handouts, not feeding those who are hungry.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by Olustee bus

Mexico has no welfare. A society needs to look after the poor to some degree. The problem is determining how.

Poverty in Mexico: Economic Crises and 21st Century Welfare

Society Yes, Government no.

Giving government the additional power of welfare is always a long term destroyer of the civilization.

[Will]

I do know that benefits are outrageously high.

Take one form of welfare, which I just posted about the other day - food stamps.

For my wife, son, and myself, I spend between $70-$80 a week on groceries. We eat healthy as well, NO Oreos or Cheetos and we have absolutely BANNED Soda from our home.

A typical weekly dinner menu:

-Pork Chop Marsala
-Chicken Breasts with cheese and roasted tomato, side of corn & black beans
-Tacos using low-carb tortillas and ground chicken or turkey
-Chicken breast pasta w/ white wine sauce & capers
-Sausage, onion, & peppers stir-fry w/ turkey or chicken sausage
-Grilled cheeseburgers (gotta pig out at least once a week. )


My typical weekly grocery run includes small pork chops, plenty of chicken breast, fresh vegetables, frozen steam-fresh vegetables, almond milk & frozen fruit (for shakes), etc. Things like cooking wine only have to be replaced once a month at most. Baby formula is bough in bulk at Sams.

Bottom line, I have budgeted myself $350 per month for groceries, including various non-grocery products (paper towels, toilet paper, soap, etc.)

I have NEVER hit $350. The highest I have hit is $319 one month. I do not shop at the cheapest crappiest store (Food Lion, UGH) I shop at Kroger, which is very nice.

Using my max, $319 per month = almost $107 per person. The average monthly foodstamp benefit per person??? $133.

That's right, the average EBT household of 3 gets nearly $100 per month MORE than I spend on groceries out of our own pocket, and that's eating healthy AND eating fun, flavorful meals.

$133 per person is an absolute JOKE.

[zz4vetteguy]

Originally Posted by Will

I do know that benefits are outrageously high.

Take one form of welfare, which I just posted about the other day - food stamps.

For my wife, son, and myself, I spend between $70-$80 a week on groceries. We eat healthy as well, NO Oreos or Cheetos and we have absolutely BANNED Soda from our home.

A typical weekly dinner menu:

-Pork Chop Marsala
-Chicken Breasts with cheese and roasted tomato, side of corn & black beans
-Tacos using low-carb tortillas and ground chicken or turkey
-Chicken breast pasta w/ white wine sauce & capers
-Sausage, onion, & peppers stir-fry w/ turkey or chicken sausage
-Grilled cheeseburgers (gotta pig out at least once a week. )


My typical weekly grocery run includes small pork chops, plenty of chicken breast, fresh vegetables, frozen steam-fresh vegetables, almond milk & frozen fruit (for shakes), etc. Things like cooking wine only have to be replaced once a month at most. Baby formula is bough in bulk at Sams.

Bottom line, I have budgeted myself $350 per month for groceries, including various non-grocery products (paper towels, toilet paper, soap, etc.)

I have NEVER hit $350. The highest I have hit is $319 one month. I do not shop at the cheapest crappiest store (Food Lion, UGH) I shop at Kroger, which is very nice.

Using my max, $319 per month = almost $107 per person. The average monthly foodstamp benefit per person??? $133.

That's right, the average EBT household of 3 gets nearly $100 per month MORE than I spend on groceries out of our own pocket, and that's eating healthy AND eating fun, flavorful meals.

$133 per person is an absolute JOKE.

But have you been to a grocery store lately and actually looked around?

When I was managing a grocery store year ago (a Food Lion btw ) we have VERY strict regulations on what we were allowed to sell on Food Stamps and WIC, I mean down to the brands, favors, and sizes, now adays you see signs and stickers all over the place "EBT Eligable" and on crap that 10 years ago they were not allowed to get.

Like Will, I have a shopping budget (since it is just me, it is a little less), because trying to pay off all my depts from when I got laid off, everything I do is budgeted. And it does kinda piss me off that I am working hard and supporting myself, I am eating chicken and hamburger, while people who are not doing anything but sticking their hands out demanding and expecting support are eating stake and lobster.

On a side note...when I was laid off, and out of work for 6 months, I collected ONE unemployment check, felt guilty about it cause I did not want any hand out, so blew through my savings and sold my posessions instead of even asking my folks for help.

B)Kroger rocks...do you use their discount card to rack up fuel points?

[zz4vetteguy]

Originally Posted by Stangkiller

I strongly believe wic/food stamps should be redeemable at food banks not grocery stores, if public transportation is available, the recipient must use it to pick up the weeks worth of basic foods.

Also, included in the drug testing should be cigarettes and alcohol, as those are both luxuries,

<Madea> Hallaluyers <Madea>

[Will]

Originally Posted by zz4vetteguy

B)Kroger rocks...do you use their discount card to rack up fuel points?

Yep. From 2009-this past summer I lived in a small town where Kroger did not have a gas station.

Needless to say, when we first moved to our new town in June, I was getting gas dirt cheap with all those built up points.

I was paying $2.30 a gallon for a while.

[Will]

Originally Posted by TxAg

Kroger points are only good for one month after they are earned.

How exactly did you retain points from 2009?

Really? You mean I got gas for 2.30 from only one month worth of shopping?

Good God, do people with large families or restaurants fill up free? We're talking 70 cents off per gallon and I spend around 300 a month at Kroger on groceries.

[RetiredSFC 97]

Originally Posted by RedLS1GTO

Been saying this for as long as I can remember. Problem solved. Those in need get food and it couldn't be any easier.

The problem with the plan is that no matter what is said, wealth distribution is the goal for most of those who support the handouts, not feeding those who are hungry.

Years ago they did receive their food as government commodities.

But let's be honest about this for a minute.

Many businesses lobbied to change the rules in order that people could use EBT cards at their place of business. It's not always the liberals who come up with these ideas. it is the liberals who run with it.

Welfare for a short time, for the truly needy is fine and almost a necessity in a civilized society wher people can no longer truly fend for themselves on the open range as they once could.

But the problem is people, whether they be the recipients or benefactor of tax money, take advantage of it. And it buys a lot of votes.

The black population votes for the dems based soley on what they get for free, as does the hispanic community in many instances.

when Be Franklin made this comment

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic

it was true and that's where we are. But it doesn't only inlcude private citizens voting themselves money. It also includes business who does the same thiing.

Look at Medicare/Medicaid and our recent obamacare.

The Medical community as a whole loves it and they were actually Pelosi's biggest contributer in 09 and 10.

[RedLS1GTO]

Originally Posted by RetiredSFC 97

It's not always the liberals who come up with these ideas. it is the liberals who run with it.

Have no doubt about it... this is a problem much larger than a single party.

[VITE1]

Originally Posted by RetiredSFC 97

Years ago they did receive their food as government commodities.

But let's be honest about this for a minute.

Many businesses lobbied to change the rules in order that people could use EBT cards at their place of business. It's not always the liberals who come up with these ideas. it is the liberals who run with it.

Welfare for a short time, for the truly needy is fine and almost a necessity in a civilized society wher people can no longer truly fend for themselves on the open range as they once could.

But the problem is people, whether they be the recipients or benefactor of tax money, take advantage of it. And it buys a lot of votes.

The black population votes for the dems based soley on what they get for free, as does the hispanic community in many instances.

when Be Franklin made this comment

it was true and that's where we are. But it doesn't only inlcude private citizens voting themselves money. It also includes business who does the same thiing.

Look at Medicare/Medicaid and our recent obamacare.

The Medical community as a whole loves it and they were actually Pelosi's biggest contributer in 09 and 10.

Exactly!!

When the GOVERNMENT gets in th loop its ALWAY about the power and who can manipulate the system.

Charity is the responsibility of all citizens. It is part of the fiber of a civilization that we take care of those who have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own.

And Kick the lazy SOB's in the ass that don't want to work or let them die.